WIP: fantasy army vs. JGSDF

[Kuokkanen]

I'm gonna make crazy scenario, where sizeable army like straight from Middle Earth goes pick up fight with few good men of modern JGSDF (Japan Ground Self-Defense Force).

First some background. I got inspiration from manga Gate - Thus the JSDF Fought There. Medieval fantasy army against modern ground force, and it is depicted as you'd expect. Bulk of fantasy army is humans, commanded by humans, and other races in it (orcs, trolls, wyverns... typical fantasy brutes) are trained and commanded by humans. At the top of the world is Empire which commands number of vassal states.

Becouse Japan isn't military powerhouse nor does it want get other nations involved, attempt is made to negotiate peace. Even though some in the Empire get it just who they were frakking with, others do not, and peaceful solution doesn't happen.

First serie of novels has been finished but not translated, and manga (fan translated) is less than halfway. So what I do here largely comes out of my rear. Main JGSDF force goes offense towards capital city, but player isn't part of that. Instead player commands small reserve force from main base of operations (around the stargate). Large force from Empire's vassal state approaches nearby town, Italica. Italica is allied with JGSDF and houses refuel point for helicopters.

River in the north is super river (see attached map file).

Settings:
Scale: 5 km/hex
Time: half-day/turn

JGSDF units on the map:
Supply & HQ unit(s) near the town
Mortar company (120 mm)
Mechanized company (Type 96 APC)
Tank platoon (Type 74 MBT)
Towed howitzer battery (105 mm)
AAA battery (towed Oerlikon cannons)
SPAAA battery (M163 VADS imported from USA)
Few small recon teams of various wheeled vehicles (from Toyota High Mobility Vehicle to Cougar MRAP imported from USA, 3+ vehicles per unit and at least one Panzerfaust 3 or other AT weapon per unit)
One unit (platoon maybe) of Huey helicopters with door gunners and full infantry load
Few units (3 maybe) of recon helicopters, 2 in each (do you recognize model?)

Reinforcements:
Small unit (platoon) of AH-1S helicopters with mix of AA missiles and Hydra rockets (early)
Mechanized/armor battalion in up to company sized units. HQ, recon units, and wheeled mechanized company (companies?) come first about half way through scenario. Tank companies (Type 90 MBT, part of the battalion) and IFVs (Type 89) come 2 turns (1 day) later. I have no idea about structure of JGSDF mechanized battalion (or any company for that matter).

JGSDF's allies:
Italica garrison unit (includes ballistas, 2 per gate)
Italica militia unit (spears, no armor)
Italica (horse) cavalry unit led by knight squad

Objectives for JGSDF & allies:
Defend Italica
Protect surrounding villages
Beat the enemy
Don't let any get away!

JGSDF supply unit is already in place next to Italica. JGSDF units come from east or south. Both approaches can deliver supplies from main base of operations. No air supply, becouse that is goes for main JGSDF force heading towards capital city (way outside the map).

Fantasy army:
I'm thinking about using units from this scenario. I have in mind 20,000 for total body count. Mostly humans, but also orcs and trolls, and one group of wyverns (or whatev source scenario has to offer) large enough to burn down small recon groups and Huey platoon. Otherwise... dunno.

Objectives for fantasy army:
Link up with main force from the Empire and crush invaders from other world
Plan B: burn crop fields, kill livestock, punish those who allied with invaders
Retreat to north and destroy bridge

Fantasy army deploys on the west along the road. It should have chance to meet its objectives. If JGSDF player clusters all it can at Italica without any attempts to slow or distract the fantasy army, then it should be able to take Italica and retreat across the bridge by the time JGSDF reinforcement battalion comes kick them out of town.

Things I need help with:
Units from WotR PBMv04f.SCE file: how?
Looks like those units were not meant to be used with or against vanilla game units. Some rebalance required here... Any ideas?
What force structures do you recommend?
I have general idea about hardware available for JGSDF and what should be in recon teams, but I have no idea about the rest...
Any ideas to further decorate the map?

[shunwick]

Matti,

Sounds like an interesting idea.

I think you would be better off creating your own equipment file. You will then be able to populate it and organize it exactly as you wish.

See here for some useful tools: Tools

If I understand the situation correctly, you might want to add more land north of the super river. As for the rest of the map, a few scattered villages, rivers, hills etc would not go amiss. Have a look at some real world mapping from a few scenarios, they might give you a good understanding of the sort of things that make a map interesting.

I have some questions though.

Where is the gate in relation to Italica?

In which direction is the main force traveling?

Would there be JGSDF supply convoys moving through Italica?

What is the ultimate goal of the JHSDF's overall mission and how does their presence in Italica contribute to that?

Best wishes,
Steve

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: shunwick

Sounds like an interesting idea.

That's why I got started with this scenario. Whether or not I'll finish it remains to be seen...

I think you would be better off creating your own equipment file. You will then be able to populate it and organize it exactly as you wish.

See here for some useful tools: Tools

Thanks. I thought I would need to do that. Good to know there are tools for that. I need modify statistics too: Crossbow unit has anti armor and anti personnel strengths at 3, and that wouldn't be fun at all for JGSDF's footsloggers. I'm gonna increase those values by order of magnitude for JGSDF units and see what it does.

If I understand the situation correctly, you might want to add more land north of the super river.

Hmm... maybe. Anyway if fantasy army gets across the river and destroys the bridge on the way, they're out of reach from JGSDF ground units at the other side. Which reminds me: is it possible to make units leave the map at desired locations?

As for the rest of the map, a few scattered villages, rivers, hills etc would not go amiss. Have a look at some real world mapping from a few scenarios, they might give you a good understanding of the sort of things that make a map interesting.

I just assumed the fantasy world wouldn't have as many rivers as Finland does, but maybe I can add something... And there could be villages outside of major roads, and I assume minor roads don't qualify in game statistics.

I have some questions though.

Where is the gate in relation to Italica?

Here is world map and here is translation (at the bottom). White hex is location of the gate and main JSDF base. Italica is nearest black dot north-north-west. Capital city is black hex in the east.

In which direction is the main force traveling?

I haven't read that part becouse manga isn't there yet and novels haven't been translated. But since plan is to get there and be done with it within 80 hours, I guess it is as straight and as fast as possible from base to capital. For this scenario reinforce battalion is reserve unit coming from Japan.

Would there be JGSDF supply convoys moving through Italica?

I guess major supply item is aviation fuel for helicopters and little else.

What is the ultimate goal of the JHSDF's overall mission and how does their presence in Italica contribute to that?

Make peace and retrieve some reparations. First through negotiations, and should that fail, by any other means necessary. Why refuel in Italica... It has been speculated there is gap in mountain range where helicopters fly through. Or whoever draw the map, frakked up the locations.

[shunwick]

Thanks for the link to the map and the translation.

Grasslands zone of Head Hunting Rabbits? Love it. [:)]

Which reminds me: is it possible to make units leave the map at desired locations?

Yes. You can use the withdraw army/withdraw unit events coupled with 1 occupies events etc. You probably wouldn't need to do that however. Once across the bridge and with the bridge destroyed, is that the end of the scenario with an Empire win?

I guess major supply item is aviation fuel for helicopters and little else.

Well, there is fuel for the helicopters, armour, ammunition for everyone (they are not going to scavenge those); food they might scavenge but those sushi ration packs are just so delicious. Thing is, get to the capital in 80 hours ok. But they would need to plan on staying much longer.

Assuming that there is no pass through the mountains from the gate at Alnus to the east, then the invasion force and its supplies would move through Italica (if that is where the pass is). That would make sense of holding Italica and it being the resupply point for the helicopters.

For the empire, destroy the supply depot at Italica, cross the bridge and destroy it before the bad guys send reinforcements sort of makes sense. But the real problem for the Empire is leaving Italica to be reoccupied. Now the Empire have no bridge to cross for another raid on the supply depot.

Not insurmountable problems. Could be an interesting scenario.

Keep at it.

Best wishes,
Steve

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: shunwick

Assuming that there is no pass through the mountains from the gate at Alnus to the east, then the invasion force and its supplies would move through Italica (if that is where the pass is). That would make sense of holding Italica and it being the resupply point for the helicopters.

Good point there. However, when first recon team goes to Italica, they come from east. This suggest that road from Alnus Hill passes Italica by east and therefore invasion force and supplies for it bypass Italica entirely. Except maybe those transported by cargo helicopters. And I would expect when invasion of capital gets on, there would be another supply camp closer to capital in better position to supply combat assets going in there.

[shunwick]

Having trouble posting. This is my third attempt.

What force structures do you recommend?

From the drawing of the castle and mention of crossbows, the Empire seems to be roughly medieval in technology. I have some DBM army lists around here somewhere. If you can narrow down (roughly) the time period and what the political structure of the Empire looks like, I should be able to find something that looks fairly reasonable with regard to force and formation structure.

Best wishes,
Steve

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: shunwick

From the drawing of the castle and mention of crossbows, the Empire seems to be roughly medieval in technology. I have some DBM army lists around here somewhere. If you can narrow down (roughly) the time period and what the political structure of the Empire looks like, I should be able to find something that looks fairly reasonable with regard to force and formation structure.

I thought I summed up soldiers' equipment level in first post: like straight from Middle Earth ( = world in Lord of the Rings). Therefore War of the Ring scenario can be good (or best) source for Empire's side.

But in more detail: in other forums Empire is compared to Roman Empire. It has very least emperor, (emperor's) royal family, and senate. But unlike in Roman Empire, this Empire has knights and nobility where titles are hereditary. Soldiers, knights, and their equipment seem to be close equal to early Medieval/Middle Age Europe before black (gun) powder. It looks like Empire is heavily based on Roman Empire (native humans in there have ancestry from Earth) which has advanced to level of Europe's Middle Age. What that means for TO&E of military units, I have no idea. It hasn't been mentioned are Empire's military units called regiments or legions or something else. One JGSDF soldier in guard duty reports approach of divisions, but that likely is just rough estimation based on # of troops he see.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: shunwick

I think you would be better off creating your own equipment file. You will then be able to populate it and organize it exactly as you wish.

See here for some useful tools: Tools

I gave run for both editors. Is it possible to copy unit entries from one file to nother by other ways than typing it manually?

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

ORIGINAL: shunwick

From the drawing of the castle and mention of crossbows, the Empire seems to be roughly medieval in technology. I have some DBM army lists around here somewhere. If you can narrow down (roughly) the time period and what the political structure of the Empire looks like, I should be able to find something that looks fairly reasonable with regard to force and formation structure.

I thought I summed up soldiers' equipment level in first post: like straight from Middle Earth ( = world in Lord of the Rings). Therefore War of the Ring scenario can be good (or best) source for Empire's side.

But in more detail: in other forums Empire is compared to Roman Empire. It has very least emperor, (emperor's) royal family, and senate. But unlike in Roman Empire, this Empire has knights and nobility where titles are hereditary. Soldiers, knights, and their equipment seem to be close equal to early Medieval/Middle Age Europe before black (gun) powder. It looks like Empire is heavily based on Roman Empire (native humans in there have ancestry from Earth) which has advanced to level of Europe's Middle Age. What that means for TO&E of military units, I have no idea. It hasn't been mentioned are Empire's military units called regiments or legions or something else. One JGSDF soldier in guard duty reports approach of divisions, but that likely is just rough estimation based on # of troops he see.

Not sure that I see the problem though. If you wish to use the LOTR as the model for the Empire then you already have the Formation and unit structure you need. It might be necessary to up the numbers a bit since I take it that you want the Empire to provide a challenge.

Best wishes,
Steve

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

ORIGINAL: shunwick

I think you would be better off creating your own equipment file. You will then be able to populate it and organize it exactly as you wish.

See here for some useful tools: Tools

I gave run for both editors. Is it possible to copy unit entries from one file to nother by other ways than typing it manually?

Well, you can have two copies of the editor open and then cut and paste. Or you can manipulate the files with an xml editor. But even if you do either of these things you are still going to end up typing in new names and new stats.

Best wishes,
Steve

PS. Thanks for the links.

[Kuokkanen]

How do I load custom equipment file for scenario?

[edit]
Even original equipment file doesn't list automatic battle rifle squad. Are all rifle squads bolt-action ones?

[shunwick]

How do I load custom equipment file for scenario?

Place the equipment file in a folder named exactly the same as your scenario and then put it in the TOAW graphics folder.

Even original equipment file doesn't list automatic battle rifle squad. Are all rifle squads bolt-action ones?

The original equipment file does have assault rifle squads. I assume you mean the LOTR equipment file.

The equipment file only has a limited amount of space for adding new equipment. IIRC it is 32 spaces. Don't quote me on that though. Scenarios designers get around this limitation by overwriting existing equipment that they know they will not use in that specific scenario.

In the case of the LOTR equipment file, the designer overwrote the assault squads and much of the infantry equipment so that he could add orcs, ents, ringwraiths etc. He knew that Frodo, Sam, and Pippin were not packing AK-47s and RPGs so he had no reason to retain those equipment items in his database.

As I have said before, you would really be much better off by creating your own equipment database. And I am sorry but there is no magic, silver bullet for it. There are tools to help you do this, which I have already linked, and a good article by Bob Cross in the Docs folder which explains how to use BioEd. That's as good as it gets.

Best wishes,
Steve

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: shunwick

As I have said before, you would really be much better off by creating your own equipment database.

What game statistics do you recommend for Howa Type 64 battle rifle?

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

ORIGINAL: shunwick

As I have said before, you would really be much better off by creating your own equipment database.

What game statistics do you recommend for Howa Type 64 battle rifle?

You would not need to worry about the statistics for it. Just use what you think is the most appropriate squad from the database - probably Assault AT Squad but it really is up to you.

All you would have to worry about is the statistics of the Empire equipment and you can use the LOTR database as a source for that and modify it according to what you imagine the overall battlefield effectiveness of it to be.

Best wishes,
Steve

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: shunwick

All you would have to worry about is the statistics of the Empire equipment and you can use the LOTR database as a source for that and modify it according to what you imagine the overall battlefield effectiveness of it to be.

Against modern weapons, somewhere between 0-1 per squad. I guess that's not gonna work, so I'll increase modern squads (and vehicles) firepower by adding 0 after respective AP and AT values. Let's see how that goes...

[Kuokkanen]

Test done. 30 Heavy Foot against 3 Assault Squads (AT 10, AP 400). I had set higher proficiency and readiness for assault platoon, but heavy foot company just marched over it with 0 casualties. Duuh... Heavy Foot has Armored checkbox ticked and Armor value is 4 while I had left those default for Assault Squad... This is gonna be harder than I thought...

[Kuokkanen]

I gave up War of the Ring equipment as template for Empire's force. Instead I chose Cavalry Squads from original equipment file as new template. Under New Equipment section I have made 3 new equipment. Practically I have duplicated the 3 Cavalry Squads with only change being unceck on Fast Horse and check mark on Infantry. Then I made repeated test runs with company of 30 Foot Squad (Lance) and 10 Horse Teams against platoon of 3 Assault Squad. No other units on the map, though each side has supply source.

Foot company is supposedly hastily trained (in 6 months or so), has had long march, and nearest source of supplies is off the map plenty of distance away. Therefore:
proficiency:50%, readiness:70%, supply:60%

Assault rifle platoon is veteran JGSDF unit: proficiency:80%, readiness:95%, supply:100%

Company attacks with Ignore Losses against assault rifle platoon with same defend order. Platoon holds up well, but supply %s for both units drop heavily. For foot company, around 10%, and with repeated attacks even below that. Platoon I can understand (consumption of ammo), but is company using its weapons and food as throwing weapons?

[shunwick]

Matti,

It sounds as if you are making good progress.

You can set the cost of supply for movement as well as the cost of readiness for movement per force.

Combat however will always cost a unit 10 supply points per combat round. Make sure that you are supplying the units with enough supply to cover the cost of battle and their recovery rate.

Here is a link to a supply calculator that you may find useful. Click link, Click on the file, Click Download.

Supply Calculator

It is a small excel spreadsheet. It's fairly simple to operate but if you have any questions about it just ask.

Best wishes,
Steve

[Kuokkanen]

I need make up few units more: ballistas, trebuchets, and wyverns. What game statistics do you recommend for first 2?

Wyverns could be little tricky. Guess I'll tick helicopter movement. It is said .50 caliber weapons can drop them with armor piercing rounds. So I guess I just copy Mi-24's DF value for that...? For AP value I think I could just use 72 of flamethrower tanks. I think I should make wyverns slower than regular helicopters. Any ideas how?

I noticed something odd with flamethrower tanks: those have AT values at 0. When tanks were burned with molotov cocktails, shouldn't flamethrowers make some number as well? Works in tactical scale wargames too: Steel Panthers (the original at least) and Combat Mission 2.

[edit]
Other weird things I have noticed:
All helicopters have AA values at 0 like AA missiles wouldn't be available for them (does helos count as air units?)
PzKpfw III has better AP value than PzKpfw II, like 37 mm breech loaded cannon is better at anti-infantry work than pair of 20 mm autocannons. Really now?

[Kuokkanen]

I made ballista with following data:
AT Value: 1
AP Value: 5
DF Value: 1
Kinetic anti-armor
Fixed
Shell weight: 32 ( = Roman talent)

Does that look right to you?

Wyvern:
AT Value: 2
AP Value: 72
AA Value: 2
DF Value: 18
Armored: 1
Helicopter movement
Reconnaissance
Active defender

For Empire's side I have chosen legion (515 squads + 100 horse teams for supply purposes) as base scale and made variety with some auxiliary units. Of the 4 legions, 1st has most cavalry, 2nd is reinforced with light infantry (515 squads + 200 Foot Squad (Saber)), 3rd has 80 ballistas (overkill?) & horse teams to pull them, and 4th has 100 wyverns (overkill?) as separate airmobile unit. Unit size icons are brigade for legions and battalion for wyvern unit.

Now I need to come up with something for the JGSDF... I already have made tank platoon of 5 Type 74 tanks and SPAAG battery of 6 M163 (Improved) & 3 trucks (to supply ammo for all that dakka [:D]) with pintle mounted Medium MGs ( = 3 trucks + 3 Medium MG). But what and how many should be in:
120 mm mortar Company
Huey platoon
Mechanized company
AH-1 Cobra (Improved) platoon
Components of tank battalion in company sized units

If nobody can give answers about JGSDF's TO&E, I can accept answers for US Army equivalent.
Also: what are these helos, and what is TOAW3 equivalent for them?

[edit]
And some answers to my previous post would be nice too...
1 question more: should I include support & porter squads for each legion, and how many?