The core problem with WitE+

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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Aurelian
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: chuckles


OK so my question to you is even if as you say the Soviets had a "Direct fire was the doctrine" some proportion of their artillery fired indirectly
what do you think that proportion was?

How many trained forward observers did they have? How many telephone wires were not cut that day? How long did they have to prepare? Were they part of an attack that day? Were the targets static or moving? What was the artillery used for when the Russians moved past the preplanned targets? Once the battle turned fluid Russian indirect fire became just about useless unless the guns could see the target.

The Soviets had a hard time training good observers and fire control specialists. Those who could usually ended up in Artillery Divisions.



Argue all you want, but their artillery doctrine stressed direct fire for the reasons above. Their artillery was designed to be used in either role.
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chuckfourth
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by chuckfourth »

OK
So are you saying that the combat engine shouldn't bother modelling indirect fire weapons?

Best Regards Chuck.
Best Regards Chuck
Aurelian
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Aurelian »

I haven't read it yet, but this may be of interest: http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p4013coll2/id/1551

This study is a detailed look at the information available in current Soviet military publications on how the Soviets use their field artillery weapons in a direct fire role. It includes a discussion of the historical background for use of direct fire as it was developed during the Great Patriotic War. The primary emphasis is on how the Soviets currently employ direct fire during offensive and defensive operations, and the training techniques used to develop direct fire skills at individual and collective levels. The conclusions drawn from this study are that the Soviets will aggressively use their field artillery in a direct fire role in both offensive and defensive situations, but most routinely in the meeting engagement; the major advantages for the use of direct fire are timeliness, accuracy, and ammunition savings; routine training is conducted by Soviet artillery units to develop their direct fire skills; and the Soviets'; significant numerical advantage In artillery assets allows them the flexibility to employ It for direct fire."

"In the sectors of greatest importance for the Leningrad counterattack in January 1943 there were at least 40 direct fire guns per kilometer of front. In the main attack by 2nd Army, thirty seven per cent of the small caliber artillery pieces (mostly 76mm) were in direct fire positions, and about ten percent of the larger caliber artillery pieces (mostly 122mrn. but some 152mm) were in direct fire positions. The supporting attack by 8th Army showed about fifteen per cent less use of direct fire artillery."
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Aurelian
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: chuckles

OK
So are you saying that the combat engine shouldn't bother modelling indirect fire weapons?

Best Regards Chuck.

No.

What I'm saying is that this:
ORIGINAL: chuckles

The problem is that the 152mm howitzers are divisional or better artillery.
That means that they are far -behind- an entire Russian (for arguments sake) infantry division.

Is wrong.
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carlkay58
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by carlkay58 »

Hi Carlkay58
I understand Regimental guns can be LOS guns but not necessarily.
Heavily Armoured SP assault howitzers are clearly front line units I'm talking about artillery batteries (with radios and spotters).

OK then, of the remaining soviet artillery
What proportion do you think fired directly and what proportion fired indirectly?
Did the Soviet artillery 'divisions' fire directly?
How about Soviet Mortar and Rocket batteries? what proportion of these units fired directly or indirectly?
Are you saying that the game shouldn't bother trying to model indirect fire weapons correctly?
Best Regards Chuck

Today, the Soviet artillery is armored SP assault howitzers, in WWII they were horse drawn artillery pieces. Meeting engagements (one of the primary type of engagements according to Soviet doctrine from 1930s and on) see regimental artillery committed to the front line from the first. The reaction speed, accuracy, and support fire is better that way. Divisional, Corps, and Army artillery were also used in the front lines depending on the situation and the amount of support the regiment is to have. It was not a standard practice for the higher echelon artillery to be in the front line, but the pursuit and exploitation phases included the Divisional and Corps levels being placed there.

Artillery divisions were used for opening barrages for deliberate attacks. They fired from a distance and were basically trained for barrages. These barrages were area suppression type missions, they were plotted for specific geographical locations on precise time tables. These time tables could be stopped and/or restarted through the use of flares from the forward units. The artillery divisions also had the few trained forward observers that could be detached to the front lines for defensive support missions.

Neither rockets or mortars are direct fire weapon types. That said, mortars were commonly within sight of their planned targets while the heavy mortars were sometimes used as additional long range support. Anything under 150mm were usually front line weapons. Rockets were more of an operational (read division/corps) element and used for area bombardments in both the offensive and defensive modes. Their rapid rate of fire were used to break up enemy concentrations or protect the flanks of advances until supporting units could take over.

I guess what all this is leading to is that the current combat calculations and resolution are fairly complex. Could you make it more complex with consideration of each individual nation's artillery doctrines? Definitely. You can say the same thing for the nation's tank and infantry doctrines also. Will the game benefit from the additional detail and complexity? That I could argue either way. All I know is that trying to make it more complex may not be the right answer as the smallest bit of wrong calculation or evaluation is magnified on the scales that are represented in these games.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: Gray Lensman
ORIGINAL: Pelton

I have looked over some of the other games out there that are named on this thread.

None really look that great or are tring to tackle WW2 in Europe as 2by3 is.

WiF's simply is going to be hard to do HvH in real time, because of phase design.

Operational games tend to be easy to design as both players are in a box.

WitE/WitW+++ to WiE is a sandbox.

But yet on a grand scale no one is tring to do BOTH in a single game.

As with WitP things will get better and better in the long run.


Can't post a link due to low number of posts but check out wargamer.com re:Schwerpunkt games and you'll find someone is working on BOTH in a single WIE game!

edit1> scale = 7.5 miles per hex center to center

edit2> Incidentally, though it's getting rather dated, Decision Games has had a PC adaptation of SSI's board game version of WIE for many years.


http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=83493

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=508684

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=584761

Your looking at a 1 man team.

I respect the guy, but odds are the system will fail.
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gradenko2k
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by gradenko2k »

ORIGINAL: chuckles
Hi gradenko_2000

You said
All weapons with enough reach to participate in the Long-range phase (mostly artillery) all take turns firing at each other (hence artillery killing artillery) and at non-participating targets (hence artillery killing tanks).

The Artillery don't fire at each other the attacking artillery lays a barrage on the defending infantries positions. The attacking Artillery lays a barrage on the advancing infantry. They are to busy doing this (there jobs) to fire at each other.
Also it is unlikely that the opposing batteries are within range of each other.
Because the artillery is wrongly modelled as a direct fire weapon It participates in tank killing from the engagements beginning when in reality it cant see any tanks. It shouldn't be killing any tanks until the attacker has rolled right over the defending division and can actually see the defending artillery.
The chance of indirect fire hitting a moving tank is about .00something.

best Regards Chuck.

I was not referring to real-life combat. Of course opposing artillery wouldn't always be in a position to hit each other and of course indirect artillery fire would have a vanishingly small chance of hitting an advancing tank.

I was referring to how artillery-on-artillery kills and artillery-on-tank kills result from how War in the East's combat, specifically, is modeled/simulated.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by chuckfourth »

Hi carlkay58
You wrote
All I know is that trying to make it more complex may not be the right answer as the smallest bit of wrong calculation or evaluation is magnified on the scales that are represented in these games

Right on the money here.
Because the combat engine is so crude,
not modelling indirect fire weapons.
not restricting AT fire to armour.
not giving armoured troops the benefit of the armoured carriers.
not including any tactics.

These are in your language 'wrong calculations'
and -are- being 'magnified'
to the detriment of the German player,
Because
The German player relies heavily on tactics and the 'proper' use of specialist or support weapons.

The Russian with numbers on his side isn't affected.
Not fair.

Best Regards Chuck.





Best Regards Chuck
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76mm
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: chuckles
The German player relies heavily on tactics and the 'proper' use of specialist or support weapons.

The Russian with numbers on his side isn't affected.
Not fair.

I agree with your general point, but don't think it is as simple as all that, and in particular don't agree that the combat model exclusively favors the Soviets--if so, why was the 1:1->2:1 rule necessary?

The 1:1->2:1 rule is no less than a white flag from the combat engine saying that it cannot properly reflect the results of Sov attacks in 1941.

I think that the biggest problem that the Germans have with the combat engine are the retreat losses.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by SigUp »

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I think that the biggest problem that the Germans have with the combat engine are the retreat losses.
Agreed. If the German player can't turn the match into a fort slugfest in 1943-44 his army is getting ground to dust in no time. Another issue are the low attacking losses of the engine. No matter German or Soviet, the engine severely understates the losses of successful attacks.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Tarhunnas »

ORIGINAL: SigUp

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I think that the biggest problem that the Germans have with the combat engine are the retreat losses.
Agreed. If the German player can't turn the match into a fort slugfest in 1943-44 his army is getting ground to dust in no time. Another issue are the low attacking losses of the engine. No matter German or Soviet, the engine severely understates the losses of successful attacks.

Not sure I agree there. Successful attacks can have surprisingly few casualties for the attacking side - or high ones, it would depend on the tactics employed and the quality of the troops.
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chuckfourth
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by chuckfourth »

Hi 76mm

The combat engine is the fundamental problem and many other 'secondary' problems arise from it being too simple.

Quick fixes such as 2:1 or perhaps ramping retreat losses up and down to compensate for a too simple combat engine are
doomed to failure and will always generate endless queries in these forums.

If the combat engine can be made to include proper deployment of specialist and support weapons and have some tactics
That will give vastly different results, the realistic results everybody wants.
Once that is done
then
its time to address higher level problems some of which will probably disappear outright, and at least the others can be dealt with
from a solid rather than shaky foundation

The Germans can't replace the Heavy weapons losses generated by putting their 170mm, 210mm, 540mm, 600mm, and 800mm guns and railway guns in the forward observers foxhole.
The Germans can't replace the AT gun loses generated by using them as MGs against infantry.

The soviets can, easily not exclusively but easily.

You are right it is never as simple as that.

AFAIK the Germans were pretty good at retaining the divisions heavy weapons during retreats. Now prepare for the flood of examples where thy weren't.

God only knows what thinking lies behind the 2:1 rule. It is exactly the sort of thing that wont be necessary with a sensible combat engine.

Best regards Chuck
Best Regards Chuck
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by SigUp »

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Not sure I agree there. Successful attacks can have surprisingly few casualties for the attacking side - or high ones, it would depend on the tactics employed and the quality of the troops.
I have the feeling that without reserve activation successful attacks are relatively lightly punished unless it's in heavy terrain / forts. Even then the losses tend to be low if you can mass tons of units.
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76mm
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: chuckles
The combat engine is the fundamental problem and many other 'secondary' problems arise from it being too simple.

Quick fixes such as 2:1 or perhaps ramping retreat losses up and down to compensate for a too simple combat engine are
doomed to failure and will always generate endless queries in these forums.
***
God only knows what thinking lies behind the 2:1 rule. It is exactly the sort of thing that wont be necessary with a sensible combat engine.

Again, I generally agree, although I tend to consider retreat losses as part of the (flawed) combat engine rather than something separate.

Moreover, I don't agree that the current combat engine properly takes into account numbers, etc., but not proper tactics, which I think is your contention.

In other words, I think the 2:1 rule is necessary precisely because the combat engine cannot get the 1941 results right without it--in the vast majority of Sov attacks in 1941 there were no tactics to speak of--just desperate charges by large numbers of Sov troops--so if the numerical aspect of the combat engine worked it should be able to properly reflect such attacks. And yet apparently without the 2:1 rule the combat engine cannot reflect the significant losses inflicted by the Sovs on the Germans by such attacks.

If combat results "seem right" to some players in subsequent periods, I think it is just a result of people not really understanding what the convoluted and opaque combat engine is doing. In fact I regard so-called "combat engine" as just a bunch of hand-waving, hocus-pocus nonsense. I think the fact that the combat engine simply treats the opposing sides as lining up in a big line and shooting at each other is illustrative of this.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by hfarrish »

ORIGINAL: chuckles

Hi 76mm

The combat engine is the fundamental problem and many other 'secondary' problems arise from it being too simple.

Quick fixes such as 2:1 or perhaps ramping retreat losses up and down to compensate for a too simple combat engine are
doomed to failure and will always generate endless queries in these forums.

If the combat engine can be made to include proper deployment of specialist and support weapons and have some tactics
That will give vastly different results, the realistic results everybody wants.
Once that is done
then
its time to address higher level problems some of which will probably disappear outright, and at least the others can be dealt with
from a solid rather than shaky foundation

The Germans can't replace the Heavy weapons losses generated by putting their 170mm, 210mm, 540mm, 600mm, and 800mm guns and railway guns in the forward observers foxhole.
The Germans can't replace the AT gun loses generated by using them as MGs against infantry.

The soviets can, easily not exclusively but easily.

You are right it is never as simple as that.

AFAIK the Germans were pretty good at retaining the divisions heavy weapons during retreats. Now prepare for the flood of examples where thy weren't.

God only knows what thinking lies behind the 2:1 rule. It is exactly the sort of thing that wont be necessary with a sensible combat engine.

Best regards Chuck

Since the Germans are pretty well able to rampage their way through anything but the most heavily dug in Soviet units in 41 and 42, I'm unclear what you are hoping for by your stated goal of such more realistic combat engine, which is better results for the Germans.

This isn't a defense of the combat engine per se, just rather that if it were "fixed" in a way that acheived what you say it should do, the game would become severely unbalanced. Morale may not be the best way of getting to the German's advantages, but it does basically do just that..

Great if we have a better engine for WITW - but ppl shouldn't think that this issue somehow makes WITE dysfunctional.
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Flaviusx
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Flaviusx »

The 2:1 rule is pure chrome; there is no justification for it, it's there because it's "neat". You will not get accurate results with it or without it. (1941 is going to be goofy regardless simply because of the lack of attacker attrition on the Germans.) But it ought to go away insofar as it further enables the offensive bias of the game, which it hardly needs.

It's stupidly easy to win combats in this game. Yes, even as the Soviets and, yes, even in the total absence of the 2:1 rule. And attacking is dirt cheap for whoever does it until around 1943, when it becomes prohibitively expensive for the Germans, but still dirt cheap for the Sovs (both in relative and absolute terms.)

Getting rid of this rule is no panacea, but it at least clarifies the issues. It's a throat clearing exercise.



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hfarrish
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by hfarrish »

I agree with everything you are saying - but the combat engine does not need a total overhaul to fix these issues you mention. Increase attacker losses, get rid of the rule and nerf forts and you get, I think, improved results overall.

(My post was on the theme of the combat engine, not 2:1)
chuckfourth
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by chuckfourth »

Hi 76mm

Good Questions.
Again, I generally agree, although I tend to consider retreat losses as part of the (flawed) combat engine rather than something separate.
I think the combat engine handles the battle only. Once the combat engine produces the conditions required to start a retreat, combat ends (we've left the combat engine).
Then retreat (a separate process) begins.
Moreover, I don't agree that the current combat engine properly takes into account numbers, etc., but not proper tactics, which I think is your contention.
I would say it this way.
The combat engine knows all the units in play(numbers), but once the range has closed every unit can see (fire at) every other unit. That is a massive problem because it's miles away from reality and completely ignores tactics and unit placement.
The combat engine has all the data it needs but is too simple to make good use of it.
In other words, I think the 2:1 rule is necessary precisely because the combat engine cannot get the 1941 results right without it--in the vast majority of Sov attacks in 1941 there were no tactics to speak of--just desperate charges by large numbers of Sov troops--so if the numerical aspect of the combat engine worked it should be able to properly reflect such attacks. And yet apparently without the 2:1 rule the combat engine cannot reflect the significant losses inflicted by the Sovs on the Germans by such attacks.
The Soviets did not inflict significant losses on the Germans in mass attacks.
The Soviets inflicted significant losses on there -own- men to achieve a normal (in casualty terms) result on the Germans
Basically this type of infantry assault without supporting arms uses up infantry(Soviet) instead or High Explosive other than that it is unremarkable.
Personally I think this feature of the war isn't really within the scope of the game or of any real importance.
But you could model it by perhaps dropping morale or maybe experience to very low levels for a small random number of Soviet attacks.

Best Regards Chuck.
Best Regards Chuck
chuckfourth
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by chuckfourth »

Hi Hfarrish

Another good question
Since the Germans are pretty well able to rampage their way through anything but the most heavily dug in Soviet units in 41 and 42, I'm unclear what you are hoping for by your stated goal of such more realistic combat engine, which is better results for the Germans.

This isn't a defense of the combat engine per se, just rather that if it were "fixed" in a way that acheived what you say it should do, the game would become severely unbalanced. Morale may not be the best way of getting to the German's advantages, but it does basically do just that..

Great if we have a better engine for WITW - but ppl shouldn't think that this issue somehow makes WITE dysfunctional.

The tactics and placement of German and Soviet units is known and can be modelled
but unfortunately isn't, or very crudely.
This can be done and would change battle results dramatically.

Once this fundamental or concrete aspect of the game reflects reality we can adjust the other abstract factors (Morale Experience Fatigue Command) to regain play balance.

Perhaps Moral ranges are two wide?
Maybe the starting range of 80 to 40 or so is too great maybe the basic moral range should be between 70 and 80 though it could still fluctuate between the current ranges.
Same for Experience and Fatigue.
You also have the commanders ratings to play with.

So bottom line is if you get the real values of the combat engine right then the abstract value morale can be easily adjusted to regain play balance

In my opinion the Germans biggest advantage was it's leadership, then its Tactics and Equipment then it's experience.

I think Ivan is every bit as brave as Hans but he is poorly led and not as well equipped and initially not as well trained or experienced.

Best Regards Chuck.
Best Regards Chuck
hfarrish
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by hfarrish »


I don't disagree with you - in an ideal world that would be the starting point. For this game, though, I'd hate to see them start mucking around b/c its actually in pretty good shape now.

Mainly i don't want potential players to see the boards and think the game has dramatic, game breaking issues...for 99pct of the world right now it will work really well and be a lot of fun.

I'm sure WITW will represent a positive evolution and set the stage for a solid WITE 2.
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