A question of "gamey?"

[AW1Steve]

Here's a question which I'm not sure if this would be gamey or not. Stillwell pulled a number of Chinese divisions into Burma/India for the purpose of re-equipping and training in a western manner , which he kept under his command. Also , the AVG grew out of a bigger plan to create a full scale Chinese air force. What I'm wondering is this: assuming I pay the full PP's required , would/should Japanese players have heartburn with my doing the same? That is take Chinese units/squadrons out of the fight, and out of China , and pull them back to a safer allied backwater (like say Karachi or Calcutta) for the intention of creating a decent force to latter return to China as the basis for a "new Army"?

And if those units were training in an area when they came under treat , could they join the fight? Or take part of an action with allied forces with the intent of being "blooded"? As I said, my intent is to build a decent Chinese military , not reinforce the "Anglosphere". Your thoughts , fellow players? [&:]

[dr.hal]

Well if the agreement between players is only to pay PPs to cross national lines, then I don't see why not. And most certainly once out of theater they could be employed if needs be in their training area if threatened. However, I don't see these troops joining the fight to liberate Rangoon or Singapore or other areas. I would assume that "plausible" use would be ok, that which falls in the realm of possible options given their nationality. However shipping them off to Oz or the DEI would not fall into that bucket. I think I've learned a lesson in this area; games that are rooted in historical probability but allow A-historical concepts can be easily misunderstood! Lots of gray area.

[DD696]

It is a game, therefore everything is "gamey" - particularly if you are a PBEM player. As a group you simply whine too much.

Get over it.

Enjoy the game.

[AW1Steve]

It's rather interesting to get my own words tossed back into my teeth. No DD696, I'm not whining , complaining or bytching. I was simply curious if anyone would have a point of view different than mine on this issue. If you find that we whine too much, perhaps you should consider playing a different game. Maybe "chutes and ladders?". [:D]

I ask the question for the same reason others before me did, because I value the opinions of my fellow players. Less one, that is.[8|]

[DD696]

I would think that there are a great many people who would have a different point of view than yours. It has always been obvious that your point of view is of the utmost importance in this forum - with the exception of Terminus, although I struggle to determine as to just who this may be.

As far as your "chutes and ladders" go, I suppose that you have enjoyed it, but I don't know anything about it.

[Feltan]

AW1Steve,

What you describe is actually very close to how history played out. I think some Chinese divisions were trained up in the Rangpur/Tezpur region up the rail line from Ledo.

From a gaming point-of-view, the only accommodation seems to be the PP cost for crossing boarders (which, BTW, I do not subscribe to as a necessary or a desirable HR).

Were I the Japanese, I couldn't see a reasonable objection for the use of these units in China or land-contiguous portions of the SEA theater area in general. If, on the other hand, they got loaded onto ships and invaded parts of the DEI/PI -- well, that would strain things a bit in my opinion.

The crux of the reality is what Chaing Kai-Shek would have agreed to. That is tough to second guess. He as a whiner and complainer and always wanted way more materiel support than he got. Would "building" him an Air Force convince him to cough up a couple of divisions's worth of people? That seems like an entirely reasonable "what if" scenario to me.

Regards,
Feltan

[dr.hal]

Nicely stated Feltan.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Here's a question which I'm not sure if this would be gamey or not. Stillwell pulled a number of Chinese divisions into Burma/India for the purpose of re-equipping and training in a western manner , which he kept under his command. Also , the AVG grew out of a bigger plan to create a full scale Chinese air force. What I'm wondering is this: assuming I pay the full PP's required , would/should Japanese players have heartburn with my doing the same? That is take Chinese units/squadrons out of the fight, and out of China , and pull them back to a safer allied backwater (like say Karachi or Calcutta) for the intention of creating a decent force to latter return to China as the basis for a "new Army"?

And if those units were training in an area when they came under treat , could they join the fight? Or take part of an action with allied forces with the intent of being "blooded"? As I said, my intent is to build a decent Chinese military , not reinforce the "Anglosphere". Your thoughts , fellow players? [&:]

No arguments here, Allied dog. You pay full PP, you get to do what you want with 'em.

Plus, as Feltan accurately identifies, something akin to this happened IRL. I recall reading about the Chinese 'soldiers' so airlifted out of theatre to rebuild and re-equip. They were dressed in rags, unarmed, malnourished and so forth. But, after months and months they were formed into a semi-credible fighting force. Emphasis on the "semi", but you get the gist.

I don't think the same historical application was pertinent to Chinese AF units (after all, the AVG was dissolved in mid-1942), but I'd still have no problem with you transferring Chinese air units to India if you pay PP for said transfer.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: DD696

It is a game, therefore everything is "gamey" - particularly if you are a PBEM player. As a group you simply whine too much.

Get over it.

Enjoy the game.

This was unnecessarily perfunctory and brusque, DD696. AW1Steve asked a very reasonable question in a very reasonable fashion. He didn't deserve to be crapped all over. He enjoys the game and is a committed player. You could learn much from him if you'd stop and listen.

[morejeffs]

It is weird to call what actually happened gamey.....The Allies did equip a few Chinese Divs in India (the game engine would say supplies,
the US would say the US instituted policies that helped the health of the soldiers (real food in large supplies) but cutting out corrupt practices...And then those divs fought in Burma....

Hard to see how recreating that is gamey......But I guess if some (not all) JFBs can find making 400 Franks a month NOT gamey, they can find this to be gamey!

[CT Grognard]

As a JFB, no, that is not gamey at all.

[Amoral]

I wouldn't even consider it gamey to use those forces out of theatre. There would certainly be a price to be paid to Chiang Kai-Shek t get him to agree to that, but I think that 'price' is abstracted in the PPs you pay.

[LoBaron]

Not gamey as long as you use PP to move the units to unrestricted HQ.

[PaxMondo]

I wouldn't consider this gamey at all.

As to the reality, it merely brings out one of the many "concessions" to reality that we have to accomodate as a game. This being, how do the chinese unit effect replacements when out of china? Not too many chinese conscripts in India. This isn't a complaint, but rather an observation. Even units in training, in particular in training, will suffer casualties. So how would replacements be effected? I'm asking this rhetorically here, but it is a reason why in reality it is hard for large units to train outside of their homeland for extended periods of time, in particular in a war situation.

Again though, within the games context, I think this is a "normal" tactic and I wouldn't object at all.

[offenseman]

I like the PP buy out HR despite. That said, IMHO I would never ship those units off the main continent of Asia, except to invade Taiwan, and would use them in the intended the historically intended spirit of eradicating the Japanese invaders.

DD696- that was uncalled for.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Here's a question which I'm not sure if this would be gamey or not.

There is no answer, only philosophy. We built this thing to be a monster, flexible, toolbox of techniques and alternatives in the conduct of an air/sea/land campaign in the Pacific, with a big econ gloss. The sweet spot is no switches, no nothing, not even altitude settings (there is internal code that works that out rationally). So every time a player clicks a bootawn to change something, it is “gamey”.

The inherent flexibility of the game, and a few missed algorithmic blivets, means that players can find the far end points of things and go wild. In the context of the game engine and game system design, that must be accepted, in order to maintain the flexibility of things.

It truly is a matter of personal preference. There is a very broad spectrum of play styles. The spectrum is bordered, at one end, by grognards who are immersed in the minutiae of operations in the Pac Theater and who want to operate accordingly, and at the other end by computer wargamers who just want to win the game. Both styles are valid within their own context.

Considerations of “gaminess” need to take player styles into account. One size does not fit all.

I’m on the grog side of the scale. I think if it was done, then one can do it. Conversely, nobody ever moved multiple Inf Divs through a stinking Air HQ . Much of those feces smell the same to pretty much everybody.

Who are you? What do you want to accomplish with the game? That will define your level of “gaminess”.

I do not speak for the designers as a whole; others will have different opinions. Ciao, John

[Barb]

Hi Steve,
I would not see any problem in it. It is close to what happened actually.
Once you pay PPs, Chinese can walk to India (or be airlifted) to some quiet spot. After being reequipped and retrained, they should do their jobs in reopening the Burma road... (I wouldn't use them for some crazy missions in DEI/Australia/Pacific).

But if you would like to be close to history, watch the number and size of the Chinese units - actually only 3 or 4 divisions got through this process.

Chinese Air units can also be moved, trained and equipped in India. Actually Chinese pilots were trained in CONUS, and Chinese squadrons usually took over their new airplanes in India.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Feltan

The crux of the reality is what Chaing Kai-Shek would have agreed to. That is tough to second guess. He as a whiner and complainer and always wanted way more materiel support than he got ...

But for both logistical and political reasons, I seem to recall that China was the least supplied of all WW II operational theaters.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Feltan

The crux of the reality is what Chaing Kai-Shek would have agreed to. That is tough to second guess. He as a whiner and complainer and always wanted way more materiel support than he got ...

But for both logistical and political reasons, I seem to recall that China was the least supplied of all WW II operational theaters.

Yes, prior to 1944-45 the delivered amount was pitiful. Just can't get that much material over the hump. In addition there was also conflict between Stilwell and Chennault as to whether the airforce or the ground forces should get the material.

[obvert]

To the OP, no problem. Pay the PPs and do what you like with the units. The Chinese wanted to show they were willing to send some troops to support the general Allied effort outside of China, i.e., in Burma, so they did do that, but they probably shouldn't have, considering they were the only of the Allied powers who's homeland was occupied by Japan at the time! [;)]

ORIGINAL: Feltan


The crux of the reality is what Chaing Kai-Shek would have agreed to. That is tough to second guess. He as a whiner and complainer and always wanted way more materiel support than he got. Would "building" him an Air Force convince him to cough up a couple of divisions's worth of people? That seems like an entirely reasonable "what if" scenario to me.

Regards,
Feltan

Having just read this book, China's War with Japan; 1937-45

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chinas-War-Japan-1937-1945-Struggle/dp/1846140102/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389566669&sr=8-1&keywords=japanese war in china

I'd say Chiang's major fault was that he let the US keep Stilwell as advisor for far too long. Stilwell was a megalomaniac and the fact he really lost all major battles he engineered doesn't say much for him. Chiang was hamstrung by a war that had been going on already for four years when the Allies entered it which had crushed his own people, fractured his alliances, given power to his adversaries in China, and used up his best forces and material.

Chiang wasn't great, but he wasn't a whiner unless you're listening to Stilwell, and that is a big mistake. An air force might have really bled the Japanese and helped in China where air raids were a daily threat and reality which led to serious lack of productivity, infrastructure and morale.

We're playing a game here, but in the war should the Chinese have 'given up' several of their best divisions when in the beginning of the war they were being continually pushed back, and later when they were about to be struck by Operation Ichi-Go? Probably not. The situation in China was bleak. British and US involvement there didn't really help much, and arguably hurt quite a lot. Stilwell kept supplies and aid for the use of 'his troops' in India and Burma but didn't let it get to the front lines in China where it was actually needed.