A question of "gamey?"

Feltan · Post by **Feltan** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:32 pm

obvert,

I wouldn't be too hard on Stilwell. And, I would read the words of any Oxford professor with a gimlet eye. Sending supplies forward might sound like the correct and prudent thing to do; however, in China that meant shipping them to the local warlord who might very well sell them on the black market -- or to the Japanese. From a Western perspective, the Chinese front was nothing like one would expect in such a brutal conflict. Rather, it was often just opposing thugs trying to make money and avoid fighting each other or the Japanese -- because combat is just not good for business.

Regards,
Feltan

decaro · Post by **decaro** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:02 pm

ORIGINAL: Feltan

I wouldn't be too hard on Stilwell ...

Why not?
To earn the nickname "Vinegar Joe" it sounds like Stilwell was pretty hard on everyone else.

Feltan · Post by **Feltan** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:51 pm

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Feltan

I wouldn't be too hard on Stilwell ...

Why not?
To earn the nickname "Vinegar Joe" it sounds like Stilwell was pretty hard on everyone else.

Yes, well, you see Stilwell is dead and I wasn't meaning not to be hard on him personally. Rather I meant don't be too hard on him in the context of historical evaluation -- especially by an author who heads a Chinese Studies section and has a string of books favorable to all things Chinese.

Regards,
Feltan

geofflambert · Post by **geofflambert** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:37 am

So far, in my experience, there's no need to withdraw Ch. sqds. to develop them. The most important thing is training and you can accomplish that without your trainees getting killed. Bombing the airbase they are training at will not kill any of them and just mostly damage some planes and draw resources from the IJA to attack them.

Barb · Post by **Barb** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:04 am

One of the Chinese priorities was to get supplies - and for this Burma road had to be opened. So I see no reason why Chiang would not let some of his troops to be equipped by allied weapons and trained to cooperate in an offensive to reopen the Burma road.
There was also an Y Force - several divisions of troops facing Burma from Yunnan - for defensive as well as offensive purpose.

Every drop of supply or fuel as well as every bullet the China got from allies was worth the attempt. The mismanagement, corruption and internal conflicts were unfortunately part of it too.

Once Burma road was open, one or two Chinese divisions were airlifted back to China to help stop the Ichi-go offensive...

On the other hand, I doubt that Chiang would have allowed his divisions employed on some other mission that reopening Burma road.

decaro · Post by **decaro** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:14 am

ORIGINAL: Feltan

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Feltan

I wouldn't be too hard on Stilwell ...

Why not?
To earn the nickname "Vinegar Joe" it sounds like Stilwell was pretty hard on everyone else.

Yes, well, you see Stilwell is dead ...

So Stil well really isn't doing very well at all? [;)]

cantona2 · Post by **cantona2** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:32 pm

Gamey???? No chance. As has been mentioned above, historically it was so

AW1Steve · Post by **AW1Steve** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:16 pm

Thanks guys! [&o] You've given me a lot to think about. While I generally lean in doing what where the historical policies , one of the things I do love about the game is the opportunity to see if I can be smarter than Nimitz or Yamamoto. And that means doing something different.

One of the thoughts I've always had was that SOMETHING needed to be done in China. You can't save the whole army , but you CAN turn a very small part of it into something that can fight. [:)]

USSAmerica · Post by **USSAmerica** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:07 pm

ORIGINAL: DD696

I would think that there are a great many people who would have a different point of view than yours. It has always been obvious that your point of view is of the utmost importance in this forum - with the exception of Terminus, although I struggle to determine as to just who this may be.

As far as your "chutes and ladders" go, I suppose that you have enjoyed it, but I don't know anything about it.

Sailors and Marines. Oil and Water since 1775! [:D]

USSAmerica · Post by **USSAmerica** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:19 pm

Also, keep in mind that most of the Chinese Army LCU's are "Permanently Restricted" and cannot be bought out via PP's. There are around 8-12 "Divisions" that can be bought out and then flown out of China to rebuild from the much larger supply stocks in SEAC.

AW1Steve · Post by **AW1Steve** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:46 pm

ORIGINAL: USS America

Also, keep in mind that most of the Chinese Army LCU's are "Permanently Restricted" and cannot be bought out via PP's. There are around 8-12 "Divisions" that can be bought out and then flown out of China to rebuild from the much larger supply stocks in SEAC.

Right. But the air groups are not so restricted.....and don't have the same "history" as "Vinegar Joe's divisions". On the other hand , Chennault was extremely adaptable to new tactics and ideas. The only objection that'd he'd have is concern over operational control .

Lokasenna · Post by **Lokasenna** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:45 pm

IIRC there are also several Chinese Corps that have much better devices in their TOE? The 5th New Chinese Corps (most of the components start the game around Kunming) comes to mind, but I think there are 2-3 others.

AW1Steve · Post by **AW1Steve** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:53 pm

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

So far, in my experience, there's no need to withdraw Ch. sqds. to develop them. The most important thing is training and you can accomplish that without your trainees getting killed. Bombing the airbase they are training at will not kill any of them and just mostly damage some planes and draw resources from the IJA to attack them.

I've had opponents who not only try to conquer every square inch of China, but kill every single person as well. One guy in particular gets his jollies off on it. He calls it "liquidating Gaijin". [:D] Oh, hi Andre.[:D]

Trust me lizard breath, you don't want to leave them in place when CB's around. You want to do what comes naturally.....RUN!!![:D]

DD696 · Post by **DD696** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:31 pm

Did I forget to mention that I currently have 10 Chinese units in Burma moving in, moving out, or refitting (playing a modified DaBabesA)?

Like I said, enjoy the game (and your "chutes and ladders"). USS America's first post in this thread said it better than I did.

rustysi · Post by **rustysi** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:25 pm

Don't think its "gamey" if limited in numbers (roughly 3-6 Divs) and used in theater, NE India, Burma, China. Same with air. Just no wholesale removal of entire Chinese air force. History is there, maybe not for the AF, but not really a problem. I mean we are playing and game, and many have their "what if" preferences.

Chickenboy · Post by **Chickenboy** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:00 pm

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: USS America

Also, keep in mind that most of the Chinese Army LCU's are "Permanently Restricted" and cannot be bought out via PP's. There are around 8-12 "Divisions" that can be bought out and then flown out of China to rebuild from the much larger supply stocks in SEAC.

Right. But the air groups are not so restricted.....and don't have the same "history" as "Vinegar Joe's divisions". On the other hand , Chennault was extremely adaptable to new tactics and ideas. The only objection that'd he'd have is concern over operational control .

Are you limited in airframe upgrades for the Chinese AF units, Steve? Can they get a decent P-40 mid-late war at least, or are they like the Dutch and stuck with the dregs?

DesertedFox · Post by **DesertedFox** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:05 pm

Payment of PPs is fine and deploy where you want.

I would only use those Chinese units on the mainland and not for example deploy them to fight in the DEI etc.

One extra thought though. If the allies are doing so well in China/India/Burma that they can afford to deploy those Chinese
units elsewhere such as the DEI, the Japanese player has much bigger issues than this "tactic".

Numdydar · Post by **Numdydar** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:57 pm

This is soooo true lol.

AW1Steve · Post by **AW1Steve** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:15 pm

OK, let me make one minor point. In the early part of the war , yes the allies are indeed losing. But every unit you lose is a gift to the Japanese. If you ignore China, and your opponent has the right frame of mind , you can pretty much lose the war in China on points. While this may sound crazy , add up all the victory points For taking China, it's troops, squadrons , etc. I think you'll find enough victory points to claim an autovictory. That has happened to me in an Experimental game with Chickenboy. It's been a shock. I've always ignored China. I hate it. It's a collosal time suck and general pain in the postierior. But , against the right kind of player , you've got to do something.

Chinese troops (in the game) have no supply, no transportation, won't obey orders , and are dispersed for police functions rather than trying to repell the Japanese (like 85% of ALL allied troops in the game). And you can't get supply to them. So what do you do?

If you can't bring the mountain......so how about moving the air units and those troops you can "buy out" to Burma/India and refit and train them? And is it possible to move whatever Chinese units that you can blast off their backsides and move toward the Burma border (as close as you can get to the supply lines)? That way you shorten the supply lines, and protect Burma/India from the China side?

I know this is probably insane thinking , but......

I understand about the graft of supplies , etc. But is it possible to turn a big , sucking drain into some kind of an asset?

AW1Steve · Post by **AW1Steve** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:18 pm

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: USS America

Also, keep in mind that most of the Chinese Army LCU's are "Permanently Restricted" and cannot be bought out via PP's. There are around 8-12 "Divisions" that can be bought out and then flown out of China to rebuild from the much larger supply stocks in SEAC.

Right. But the air groups are not so restricted.....and don't have the same "history" as "Vinegar Joe's divisions". On the other hand , Chennault was extremely adaptable to new tactics and ideas. The only objection that'd he'd have is concern over operational control .

Are you limited in airframe upgrades for the Chinese AF units, Steve? Can they get a decent P-40 mid-late war at least, or are they like the Dutch and stuck with the dregs?

You get some P-40's and B-25s in decent numbers. But not till after the mid point of the game. But they are not much good without decent pilots , and China is always short of those. Hence my questions about withdrawing and training units till you do.

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