Where's the Utah?

[STUCKER868]

I noticed USS Utah (BB 31) is missing at Pearl Harbor in the game (unless I'm just not seeing it). Anyone know why it was left out? Ya, it was former BB converted to a training ship and has little if any point value (although it did have some AA weapons) but if we have barges etc. I think it would have been nice to include the USS Utah (at least out of the respect of the 64 men who died on her.)

[Feltan]

The ship was a demilitarized training and target ship at the time of the attack. I am not sure of the specifics, but this was not a vessel likely to contribute to the battle line. There are numerous vessels that are not included in the game -- net tenders, and all sorts of auxiliary harbor craft; obsolete WWI craft in the West Coast reserve fleets. I don't think this is an omission as much as a nod to keep things streamlined.

Regards,
Feltan

[wdolson]

I believe the Utah is in the database, but disabled. It screwed up the Pearl Harbor attack.

As Feltan said, there are also a number of auxiliaries not explicitly in the game. Many of them are abstracted into the game engine.

Bill

[dr.hal]

True it is not a viable warship, however in reality it did become the target for a number of valuable torpedoes (remember there were only 40 Kates with them) which seem to find their way into other ships. I think it might be more realistic if it were there to do just that (after all the Pennsylvania takes torpedoes quite regularly!).

[pmelheck1]

I remember a debate that erupted a few months/years back about this. If I recall correctly the ship was little more than a floating hulk but it was wanted by some players because of the reasons stated here that it was a bomb/torpedo magnet that would soak up attacks. It was added in some mods and not in others... Good idea as a bomb magnet but I know the PH attack is a total really good, really bad affair. I've had some attacks it seemed no one missed a shot and other attacks none of my ships sustained more than 25% damage with no sinking at all - roll of the dice I don't mind at all as in real war the weirdest things can and do happen in really funny regularity that you just don't see outside of the combat zone.

[dr.hal]

I agree Mullk, it is a roll of the dice and thus chance plays a big part. But for those who like history thrown in (like the one downed pilot that evaded capture for a few days after Pearl Harbor) it is something to think about.

[Don Bowen]

If Utah were to be included, what would you do with her if she survived? Old, slow, under armed, and with no historical basis for an AE upgrade path...

[STUCKER868]

She did have AA weapons. She was a torp magnet and one of those weird things about WW2. She was a training aid to the Navy and was much larger then the tenders... Survive or not perhaps just included as a tribute to the lost crew. I guess someone could argue that the Mikasa existed in Japan and could be a target etc.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


If Utah were to be included, what would you do with her if she survived? Old, slow, under armed, and with no historical basis for an AE upgrade path...

[STUCKER868]

At the time of the attack she was armed with AA for training. I don't know if she even fired as she was one of the first ships hit.

ORIGINAL: Feltan

The ship was a demilitarized training and target ship at the time of the attack. I am not sure of the specifics, but this was not a vessel likely to contribute to the battle line. There are numerous vessels that are not included in the game -- net tenders, and all sorts of auxiliary harbor craft; obsolete WWI craft in the West Coast reserve fleets. I don't think this is an omission as much as a nod to keep things streamlined.

Regards,
Feltan

[crsutton]

Don't think I will lie awake tonight worrying about this one...[;)]

[wdolson]

In the real attack there were only 40 torpedo carriers. There are usually more than that in game. During development we had a big argument about whether the Pearl harbor attack was accurate or not. Someone tested it running the attack something like 20 or 30 times. It was quite a few. In one run he got 7 BBs sunk and in a few runs he got 0 sunk, but the average over all the runs I think the average came out to something like 2.1 BBs sunk. At that point we all declared it a dead issue.

One of the things on the table was adding in the Utah as a bomb magnet, but it would reduce historical losses of other ships.

In the real attack Yammamoto had given highest priority to the carriers and the first wave first converged on the berths where the carriers usually tied up. That morning the Utah was there and because she had her turrets removed and some flat surfaces put up for target practice, she looked a bit like a carrier and she drew first fire.

Bill

[dr.hal]

I agree, this is not going to keep folks up all night. But some interesting ships are included in the game and have virtually no value (yard oilers, the Dutch PG of pre-WW1 fame, etc) so it is just a thought. BTW Bill, I think it is pretty clear that Yamamoto's priority was not the CVs but the BBs as they were the symbol of sea power and although he was for getting the CVs if possible, he wanted the shock value of putting BBs on the bottom to get the US to come to a quick peace agreement. It was Genda and Fuchida that really wanted the CVs and even though intel indicated that they were not in harbor, they hoped that the CVs would appear "overnight" (which almost happened!). Hal

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I agree, this is not going to keep folks up all night. But some interesting ships are included in the game and have virtually no value (yard oilers, the Dutch PG of pre-WW1 fame, etc)

If you mean the PG Soerbaja, take a look at her guns. She most definitely has value as harbor defense.

[STUCKER868]

I find it ironic with all the extreme detail in this game (one that is even modeling individual aircraft engine production including specific engine types and the almost insane modeling of ship repair including individual mounts etc...) that a historical ship such as the USS Utah was left out of Pearl Harbor for any reason. The fact is she was a target and took valuable torpedoes that could have been used against other ships (and are being used against other ships in the model.) I would think UTAH would add something to support if anything because she was a training ship.
BTW, The UTAH still sits there to this day on the bottom, rusting away and her dead heroic crew is probably not going to lose any sleep over this either.
Your "comment" contributed nothing to this topic other then a diss.

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Don't think I will lie awake tonight worrying about this one...[;)]

[STUCKER868]

Added for historical accuracy if anything. Making the OB even more historically accurate as advertised!

ORIGINAL: mullk

I remember a debate that erupted a few months/years back about this. If I recall correctly the ship was little more than a floating hulk but it was wanted by some players because of the reasons stated here that it was a bomb/torpedo magnet that would soak up attacks. It was added in some mods and not in others... Good idea as a bomb magnet but I know the PH attack is a total really good, really bad affair. I've had some attacks it seemed no one missed a shot and other attacks none of my ships sustained more than 25% damage with no sinking at all - roll of the dice I don't mind at all as in real war the weirdest things can and do happen in really funny regularity that you just don't see outside of the combat zone.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

I find it ironic with all the extreme detail in this game (one that is even modeling individual aircraft engine production including specific engine types and the almost insane modeling of ship repair including individual mounts etc...) that a historical ship such as the USS Utah was left out of Pearl Harbor for any reason. The fact is she was a target and took valuable torpedoes that could have been used against other ships (and are being used against other ships in the model.) I would think UTAH would add something to support if anything because she was a training ship.
BTW, The UTAH still sits there to this day on the bottom, rusting away and her dead heroic crew is probably not going to lose any sleep over this either.
Your "comment" contributed nothing to this topic other then a diss.

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Don't think I will lie awake tonight worrying about this one...[;)]

Because it is a commercial game, AE incorporates quite extensive abstraction. Not every relevant ship/aircraft/land unit is in the game. Compromises had to be made by the scenario designers. A good thread which dealt with this very same issue this week is:

tm.asp?m=3521982

You don't agree with the decision made by the scenario designer, nothing is stopping you from using the editor to include the Utah in your own custom scenario.

Alfred

[Nami Koshino]

ORIGINAL: Alfred




You don't agree with the decision made by the scenario designer, nothing is stopping you from using the editor to include the Utah in your own custom scenario.

The same is true of the Doolittle Raid. A B-25 unit capable of operating from a carrier is not the standard setup, but you could tweak things in the editor to make it possible. However, such a unit could lead to some gamey tactics as well.

[wdolson]

The game engine doesn't support shuttle bombing. The Doolittle raid would be a form of this.

Bill

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

I find it ironic with all the extreme detail in this game (one that is even modeling individual aircraft engine production including specific engine types and the almost insane modeling of ship repair including individual mounts etc...) that a historical ship such as the USS Utah was left out of Pearl Harbor for any reason. The fact is she was a target and took valuable torpedoes that could have been used against other ships (and are being used against other ships in the model.) I would think UTAH would add something to support if anything because she was a training ship.
BTW, The UTAH still sits there to this day on the bottom, rusting away and her dead heroic crew is probably not going to lose any sleep over this either.
Your "comment" contributed nothing to this topic other then a diss.

/

There are at least two problems with including the Utah; both have been mentioned.

1) There's no need for her to be a torpedo "magnet" to keep things "fair." Whatever would be allocated to her can, in the game, instead flow to USS Pennsylvania. Those MK 666 Drydock-Jumping torpedoes are a bear.

2) The more serious issue, Don, who coded much or all of the naval routines, mentioned. If you put Utah in the OOB she is operated on by the EXE code same as any ship. Which means she can be repaired and operated with the fleet, an event for which no historical record exists. How to upgrade? What weapons to assign? If you somehow get around that and want to leave her as a hulk after the first turn --IOW, for over 1500 more turns--she sits there in Pearl taking up memory and processing in every shipyard phase. In the repair model there's no way to stop her crew from working on her, so she gradually gets fixed less major repairs. But she can't go anywhere. She just clutters up the repair reports for four-plus years.

If you try to exclude her after 12/7 and the torpedo magnet issue is gone you have to mess with the EXE, and putting a specific ship in the EXE could easily break scenarios. A ship is a data issue, not a code issue. If you code in a line that says "After 12/7, exclude the ship in Slot 5000 of the DB", and some modder puts USS Enterprise in that slot two years from now, oh the howls!

Saying no one is losing sleep over this is not an insult. I'd wager that the people on this forum as a body have nearly 100% knowledge that she's still there in Pearl as a war tomb. The comment was directed at the game. And in this case excluding her was the right call.

[STUCKER868]

Understood however the "not losing sleep" post is insulting because it makes my question seem worthless or unimportant. I asked a simple question and anyone who would post that is just trolling. Now as far at the Utah herself goes, perhaps a little bit of code concerning her alone would have solved the problem. I understand it's more work but it makes sense if you are wanting the most historical accurate OB in the history of gaming (and really you are right, there is nothing more to do with her).... other then trivia.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

I find it ironic with all the extreme detail in this game (one that is even modeling individual aircraft engine production including specific engine types and the almost insane modeling of ship repair including individual mounts etc...) that a historical ship such as the USS Utah was left out of Pearl Harbor for any reason. The fact is she was a target and took valuable torpedoes that could have been used against other ships (and are being used against other ships in the model.) I would think UTAH would add something to support if anything because she was a training ship.
BTW, The UTAH still sits there to this day on the bottom, rusting away and her dead heroic crew is probably not going to lose any sleep over this either.
Your "comment" contributed nothing to this topic other then a diss.

/

There are at least two problems with including the Utah; both have been mentioned.

1) There's no need for her to be a torpedo "magnet" to keep things "fair." Whatever would be allocated to her can, in the game, instead flow to USS Pennsylvania. Those MK 666 Drydock-Jumping torpedoes are a bear.

2) The more serious issue, Don, who coded much or all of the naval routines, mentioned. If you put Utah in the OOB she is operated on by the EXE code same as any ship. Which means she can be repaired and operated with the fleet, an event for which no historical record exists. How to upgrade? What weapons to assign? If you somehow get around that and want to leave her as a hulk after the first turn --IOW, for over 1500 more turns--she sits there in Pearl taking up memory and processing in every shipyard phase. In the repair model there's no way to stop her crew from working on her, so she gradually gets fixed less major repairs. But she can't go anywhere. She just clutters up the repair reports for four-plus years.

If you try to exclude her after 12/7 and the torpedo magnet issue is gone you have to mess with the EXE, and putting a specific ship in the EXE could easily break scenarios. A ship is a data issue, not a code issue. If you code in a line that says "After 12/7, exclude the ship in Slot 5000 of the DB", and some modder puts USS Enterprise in that slot two years from now, oh the howls!

Saying no one is losing sleep over this is not an insult. I'd wager that the people on this forum as a body have nearly 100% knowledge that she's still there in Pearl as a war tomb. The comment was directed at the game. And in this case excluding her was the right call.