A Lemon rises in the East: SqzMyLemon (J) vs. JocMeister (A)

[SqzMyLemon]

Ok, I don't want to put anyone's back up, but my first experience with air combat under the new beta is not a pleasant one. Losing 86 aircraft against only 4 Allied seems extreme to me. Considering the escort penalty is so unfair and that 75% of my attack planes went in with no escorts I hardly see how the beta has improved the air model or made it any less lopsided. It still seems to be one side simply gets slaughtered.

Now I do admit this is my first air battle under the beta and a number of you swear by it. I'll give you that, but now you need to tell me how to counter the effects of the beta otherwise I will most likely drop this game. I think I made a huge mistake consenting to upgrade to the beta when I've already spent a year of supply and time instituting a dispersed airbase strategy to counter the ability for Allied 4E's to knock out any base of their choosing if they simply concentrate all their resources on it regardless of size. If I concentrate all my aircraft at one base to try and achieve better coordination and it's bombed by 4E's and obliterated or my aircraft are grounded for whatever reason and obliterated I hardly see any way I can mount an effective defence.

My plan was to have some big airbases heavily supported by a large number of level 2-3 airbases in my MLR. This way I could always have a number of aircraft available. However, I had no idea the beta essentially makes coordination impossible unless you get every variable set perfectly and the weather cooperates. Seeing the effects of raids from smaller airbases last turn it essentially means I have no way of defending against even small amounts of Allied CAP is my raids are broken up all the time.

I also feel the beta means I'll have to strip entire areas of aircraft in order to get enough together to even have a chance of getting through even a small to moderate CAP if it means 75% of my strikes will go in unescorted. I also have a huge problem with the fact that 42 Zero's on escort with great pilots can't deal with 58 Wildcats on CAP shooting down only 2 in A2A while losing something like 18 Zero's and subsequent raids of bombers sent in unescorted and losing another 66 aircraft. Really? I thought the beta was supposed to improve air combat and make the results anything less than one side simply getting slaughtered?

Anyway, I need help understanding what needs to be done to get better coordination and if it can be achieved with a large number of smaller airbases supporting one another, or if it means I'm going to have to build up level 8-9 airbases and utilize the 250 aviation support or if that even still applies anymore? What are the settings for your Air HQ's, what skills, how far away are they from smaller fields, or do you just mass them in the level 8-9 aibases and discount the smaller bases, etc.

I've planned for a completely different air war. What occured last turn was simply watching every air unit at a smaller base sent in unescorted to get massacred because they weren't escorted. I've set up much of my air defence in certain theatres to do just this and now I see that the beta will render this useless.

It sees to me the air model now means you have to mass as many aircraft at a single airbase with enough avaiation support in order to even get a chance of semi-coordination. anything less and you risk complete destruction of your air units piecemeal. I've read all yoru AAR's, but not knowing the details, where all the aircraft flew from, the supply, the leaders, the ranges I can't formulate any concrete experience or what to do. I can't afford to learn my way through 1943 at suge a huge disadvantage. I need to bloody the Allies in 43 or this game will be over in 44.

I never should have agreed to the beta switch or if I was the one suggestioning it thinking it improved the air model. Massing all your aircraft for all or nothing air strikes just to have a chance and taking 90% casulaties seems unrealistic in th eextreme. It's going to eliminate small air battles completely in my opinion.

I admit I may change my tune as I learn how to operate within the beta, but learning it in 1943 when the Allies are advancing and Jocke has all the experience of what the beta does hardly seems fair. I would have played a completely different game and most likely set up a different defence. Anyway, I need help if it's not too late, I need to understand how to set up my air defence properly within the next one or two turns and get things in motion. I am out of town tomorrow night and wasn't planning on getting a turn to Jocke until Friday.

So I'm asking for as much feedback and help on setting things up from people that understand the beta and how I can get it working for me rather than simply hand the game to Jcoke because I don't know what I'm doing.

Thanks in advance.

[Chickenboy]

Hey dude,

I can't help you navigate the beta, as I've never played it. You know that. This is just a 'keep your chin up' sort of note. As in 'keep your chin up so I can slip the Katana blade just under it.' It's easier that way. [;)]

BANZAI!!!

[Lokasenna]

Hrm.

You'll need to have fighters at every base to escort your strikes. You can't rely on the "if there's a fighter base closer, they can join the strike if you target the escort mission" trick, as it may not happen.

Granted, my experience is entirely in '42, but with a full Sentai on escort, matching altitude, I rarely have strikes go unescorted. If we're talking a big base, say Rabaul, and 6-8 strike groups, I'd probably go with 3 Sentai or so on escort. High Air skill and Inspiration leaders. Middling Aggression on my strike groups - I want them to fly, but I don't want them to fly into the teeth of a CAP, even a weak one.

Also, really try to mismatch the strike vs. CAP altitudes.


And of course, air HQs help. Allegedly having the units all assigned to that air HQ really helps, but I haven't tried it because I can't be bothered to spend the PPs. I may change my tune if I run into problems later.


Post up stats/screenies of your bases and their situations and I could give specific tips, I think. Can't guarantee they'd work, but...

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Hrm.

You'll need to have fighters at every base to escort your strikes. You can't rely on the "if there's a fighter base closer, they can join the strike if you target the escort mission" trick, as it may not happen.

Granted, my experience is entirely in '42, but with a full Sentai on escort, matching altitude, I rarely have strikes go unescorted. If we're talking a big base, say Rabaul, and 6-8 strike groups, I'd probably go with 3 Sentai or so on escort. High Air skill and Inspiration leaders. Middling Aggression on my strike groups - I want them to fly, but I don't want them to fly into the teeth of a CAP, even a weak one.

Also, really try to mismatch the strike vs. CAP altitudes.


And of course, air HQs help. Allegedly having the units all assigned to that air HQ really helps, but I haven't tried it because I can't be bothered to spend the PPs. I may change my tune if I run into problems later.


Post up stats/screenies of your bases and their situations and I could give specific tips, I think. Can't guarantee they'd work, but...

+1

To be honest, I think trying to hit a decently sized CV TF with LBA is not going to work with 100 planes for either side, beta or no beta. I've gotten some lucky strikes here and there when such a small number flew, but not many, and most of those were early. Some were 1k altitude Frances that scored under radar. But it won't stop an invasion, and the best you could hope for is to damage a CV.

The beta also means Jocke's strikes will come in piecemiel, not just yours. So you can protect some bases with mutual support now where with the perfect coordination pre-beta the kind of 300-400 4E strike that was possible would blow anything away. We only switched after Jocke had cleared out my two most important early base complexes in middle Burma and around Rabaul. He wouldn't upgrade before that because he thought he wouldn't be able to prosecute a war moving forward without that coordination.

The Allied LBA is just as hamstrung as yours will be in the beta. The Allies in my game sent out 300 DB/TBs escorted (or supposed to be escorted) by 200-300 Hellcats, several times. Guess what? A massacre as even from the same base one strike would have 20 fighters and 150 DBs that flew into the expert KB CAP while the next had 200 Hellcats and 20 TB and that didn't work either. So it will go both ways, and don't discount that, as it's huge when you are no longer the aggressor. That alone let me sneak in and sink about 70 transports in one day in the PI while immune to the LBA strikes going from all directions.

Realistic? Maybe not. But maybe we haven't taken the time to align HQ to air groups and other factors that improve this stuff with LBA. I didn't have the PPs once I figured out what might work, but someone will at some point and we'l keep learning how to make this stuff work better. It is better with the beta when you're looking at an Allied base with 400 4E and 200 P-47s plus another 300 fighters in it staring you down. You at least know they can't all coordinate, and thus you have a chance to do some damage and slow the process, which is really the only goal that's worthwhile.

[GreyJoy]

i've using the betas since ever and i these are my opinions:

1- it is not true that the 4Es can obliterate a base easily. With forts and flak (especially DBB japanese flak) the 4Es can be easily neutralized. 200 fighters on CAP are more than enough to discourage any 4E mission. The only weapon the allies really have to obliterate a base is the naval bombardment.
2- Coordination needs to be planned well. Escort and bombers must have the same altitude. AV support MUST be in "White". Never overstack (nor groups or engines). Hope in good weather (both on the target hex and on the taking off hex).
3- To coordinate between multiple bases... you need to have several Air HQs with good leaders in each base. Pretty hard to achieve...especially because the weather variable becomes multiplied.
4- against naval targets heavily capped you really need a level 9 AF if you want to have some hope.

+2 what the Others have just said.

LBA can still be Dangerous for the allies.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

i've using the betas since ever and i these are my opinions:

1- it is not true that the 4Es can obliterate a base easily. With forts and flak (especially DBB japanese flak) the 4Es can be easily neutralized. 200 fighters on CAP are more than enough to discourage any 4E mission. The only weapon the allies really have to obliterate a base is the naval bombardment.
2- Coordination needs to be planned well. Escort and bombers must have the same altitude. AV support MUST be in "White". Never overstack (nor groups or engines). Hope in good weather (both on the target hex and on the taking off hex).
3- To coordinate between multiple bases... you need to have several Air HQs with good leaders in each base. Pretty hard to achieve...especially because the weather variable becomes multiplied.
4- against naval targets heavily capped you really need a level 9 AF if you want to have some hope.

+2 what the Others have just said.

LBA can still be Dangerous for the allies.

Agree.

[SqzMyLemon]

Thanks for the posts. I'll do my best to quickly wrap my head around air operations under the beta. It seems to me I shouldn't be focusing on coordination then, but rather ensure I bring as much force to bear in the hopes something gets through? It's going to take an attitude adjustment to get through this game. I don't have to like the direction the beta has taken, but it is what it is. Who knows, maybe I'll eventually embrace it as the rest of you have.

On to the turn.

Sub Ops:

A successful Japanese submarine attack east of Baker Island. I think another Allied operation against the Gilbert Islands is imminent considering the type of TF encountered. No troops were lost so most likely empty or running supply forward. AAR follows:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Enderbury Island at 158,136

Japanese Ships
SS I-27, hits 1 (near miss)

Allied Ships
xAP Princess Joan, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
SC-739
xAP Van Swoll
xAP Van Outhoorn
xAP Van Rees
xAP Van Overstraten
xAP Van Landsberge
xAP Van Cloon
xAP Swartenhondt
xAP Maetsuycker
xAP Baranof
SC-742

I've been changing my submarine tactics and it's resulted in some minor successes. The big ones still get away, but at this stage anything positive is just that...positive.

China:

I was able to clear the hex of all Chinese forces directly southwest of Chungking before reinforcements arrived. It was imperative that I gained control of the hex prior to moving on Chungking to commence the siege. AAR follows:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 76,46 (near Chungking)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 43543 troops, 409 guns, 725 vehicles, Assault Value = 1371

Defending force 7809 troops, 73 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 89

Japanese adjusted assault: 771

Allied adjusted defense: 61

Japanese assault odds: 12 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
57 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled

Allied ground losses:
1195 casualties reported
Squads: 132 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 122 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 13 (10 destroyed, 3 disabled)
Units retreated 1

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
3rd Mobile Engineer Regiment
17th Division
15th Tank Regiment
3rd Division
3rd Mobile Infantry Regiment
3rd Recon Battalion
40th Division
17th Tank Regiment
13th Tank Regiment
2nd Tank Regiment
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion

Defending units:
8th Chinese Corps

The Chinese around Chungking have really taken a beating lately. There are only four Chinese units left between Kienko and Ankang, the Central Plains are clear and there are still 10 Chinese units isolated east of Patung awaiting destruction.

A few more attacks against the Chinese defenders blocking the road to Kunming could force a retreat. A third division will reinforce tomorrow and as soon as supply recovers from being overstacked the next deliberate attack will go ahead. All Japanese bombers within range are targeting the defenders in support of the upcoming ground assault.

A question. Chungking now indicates 73 units totalling 361080 troops and 798 guns. What size force should I be considering to maintain the siege? Is an assault even feasible against this large a force?

Production:

Still trying to sort out supply. There is going to be a lot of airframe advances over the coming weeks which is great. I now have six factories researching the Ha-43 engine. It's imperative I get this engine advanced to speed up Ki-83 research. The Ha-45 will begin production within two weeks at 260/month. I'm thinking about total production at 400/month or is that low/high?

[Spidery]

The Ha-45 will begin production within two weeks at 260/month. I'm thinking about total production at 400/month or is that low/high?

IMO, about right if you are planning on using the Jack and a bit low if you are planning on the George. What do you expect to produce? 200 Frank, 90 George, 60 Grace, 60 Peggy maybe? That would be 470 / month. I don't know what R&D you have going but I expect the R&D demand for engines means you won't build that big a pool before all these are available. Also, it is an engine that you will want to keep producing aircraft for into 1945 so a bit of a pool isn't going to harm.

[SqzMyLemon]

A quiet day with just bombings in China to report.

The Chinese are attempting to reinforce the defenders blocking the road to Kunming. I can't prevent this, but I know I can wear down the defence over time since I can replenish my divisions. The Chinese option is to replace weakened units with fresh ones, but all will be suffering from lack of supply. I hope.

KB is spotted at Manus which can't be helped as I'm refuelling. I'll most likely withdraw KB because the area is now swarming with enemy submarines. I may even split KB to allow me some flexibility in defending the area with the Allied CV's most likely being re-deployed to support more landings in the Central Pacific.

I've got a fair bit of aviation support committed to the Solomons which I never intended. I'm going to begin to withdraw as many units as I can while the Allies are still weak in the area. I don't want to get drawn into an attritional air battle in this theatre.

I'm pretty weak everywhere though. Where do I find the troops in Scenario 1 to mount a decent defence? Is splitting up divisions to cover more area a better plan?

In production news, the Ha-32, Ha-33, Ha-34 and Ha-35 engines all have >500 in the pools now. I'll post what airframes are currently benefitting from the engine bonus. Once all repairs are completed on the Ha-43 factories I'll post the advancment rate of this crucial engine.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

A question. Chungking now indicates 73 units totalling 361080 troops and 798 guns. What size force should I be considering to maintain the siege? Is an assault even feasible against this large a force?

I'm not sure about this either. In August 1942 myself and the siege of Chungking is fixin' to start. He's got a similar number of troops / units there (probably some of the units that were liquidated in the early months of the war respawned).

So I'm bringing just about everything. Heavy artillery en masse, 5000 AV points, engineers, daily bombings to prevent fortification builds and eat base supply, the whole shootin' match.

From what I've read, this siege takes some months. Attack, bring down the forts, repair units, resupply, daily bombings, rinse, lather, repeat.

From my POV, I'm torn about the timing. I've probably banked enough points for a January 1, 1943 autovictory (27,000: 5500 points). If I lose some units with siege warfare, will that mess up my autovictory lead? If I can't reduce and liquidate all of Chungking by then (five months), is it worth it to even start the process before then?

[Spidery]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

A question. Chungking now indicates 73 units totalling 361080 troops and 798 guns. What size force should I be considering to maintain the siege? Is an assault even feasible against this large a force?

I'm not sure about this either. In August 1942 myself and the siege of Chungking is fixin' to start. He's got a similar number of troops / units there (probably some of the units that were liquidated in the early months of the war respawned).

So I'm bringing just about everything. Heavy artillery en masse, 5000 AV points, engineers, daily bombings to prevent fortification builds and eat base supply, the whole shootin' match.

From what I've read, this siege takes some months. Attack, bring down the forts, repair units, resupply, daily bombings, rinse, lather, repeat.

From my POV, I'm torn about the timing. I've probably banked enough points for a January 1, 1943 autovictory (27,000: 5500 points). If I lose some units with siege warfare, will that mess up my autovictory lead? If I can't reduce and liquidate all of Chungking by then (five months), is it worth it to even start the process before then?

The defenders will have insufficient supply for all of them. Does this mean that they will gradually become disabled and, eventually, start dieing from attrition without any attacks being required? In which case, it may not be necessary to attack at all to get a good haul of VP.

From the point of view of VP and auto-victory. If you keep up aerial bombardment can you expect to inflict 48 device losses for each aircraft lost to Ops? It seems unlikely.

[Lokasenna]

Chungking is going to take a boatload of supply. Plan for it. Supply to repair units, to bomb the airfield into dust, supply just to feed your huge stack...

For 70 units and 391k troops, I'd expect to face about 2500 Chinese AV. And you should know that Chungking's forts start at level 6. So...plan for that. Even with minimal supply they will hold you back for a long time.

[witpqs]

I just looked at a game I have, and with only 3/4 those troops the AV is over 6,100. Unit count for mine is higher, but he might have more units that are intact versus fewer that are re-spawned.

Bring lunch.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I just looked at a game I have, and with only 3/4 those troops the AV is over 6,100. Unit count for mine is higher, but he might have more units that are intact versus fewer that are re-spawned.

Bring lunch.

What date for your game, my Argletonian colleague? I wonder if that makes a difference?

[witpqs]

November 24th, 1943. I'm sure there's lots of variation, but ~400,000 troops just sounds like a barn full!

[Lokasenna]

Of those 73 units, at least a dozen or so are the ART units that begin the game there, I'd wager. 11/1943 is a lot more time to eat supply and replacements...especially if he has an airlift going on.


If you can, I'd start bombing the industry at Chungking, if you're allowed to per your HRs or lack thereof. Night firebombing if you have to. If you think that once you take Chungking you can hold it, I might try not to target the HI and instead just target the LI, but I still might bomb both out.

[SqzMyLemon]

I should have been keeping track of destroyed Chinese LCU's. I may try and work my way back from the combat reports to get an idea. I'd estimate at least 60% to 70% of the units at Chungking are re-spawns including a number of HQ's and support units. If most Chinese units come back at roughly 275 AV there could be well over 5k in the hex including reinforcements. I've also destroyed a number of LCU's within the last couple of weeks so the numbers will only increase.

I believe Jocke's already split off his best units and sent them along the Chengtu - Tsuyung route. At one point months ago a 24 unit stack was seen withdrawing into the mountains. I've been LRCAP'ing the three remaining bases on occasion, but haven't encountered transports. I think airlifts are occurring in the field and out of sight.

I'll provide the amount of non-garrison Japanese AV available for operations against Chungking when I get a chance.

As to strat bombing in China, our HR is once we reach Jan. 1/43 the Allies can begin bombing industry in China. We didn't really discuss whether that meant I'd be free to bomb. I'll mention it to Jocke and if allowed, I'll target Chinese industry at Chungking. I'm not concerned with destroying either the HI or LI as I fully expect Jocke to target Japanese controlled industry within range whenever possible from bases in India.

[SqzMyLemon]

On a side note, I don't tend to discuss the game much with Jocke in our e-mails, but I have complained about results and during the transition from Stock to DaBabes in the past. I initially didn't complain about the Milne Bay debacle, but I let my emotions get the better of me once again and ranted. Jocke suggested I think about quitting since I have such issues with the game.

I'm an emotional player and tend to wear my heart on my sleeve. I do have many issues with the game, but there's nothing I can do to change that other than try to play within the game engine/mechanics and keep my negative thoughts to myself. The reason I'm posting this is I know a lot of people probably see me as nothing more than a complainer, but it's being too competitive that is the driving force of my frustration. The game is so luck driven that it's difficult for me to accept the results at times. That being said, I'm going to make an effort to not be so negative in the AAR moving forward. I'm not saying it's going to be roses from here on out, but I will try to be more positive in my approach to the game and that includes my comments.

I thank all of you that still follow along and continue to offer suggestions and advice, it's always appreciated. By improving the tone of the AAR I hope it will become a more enjoyable experience for us all.

[SqzMyLemon]

I quickly crunched some AV numbers in China.

I have 8738 AV available in 23 divisions. This can only increase once disablements and losses are recovered. Another 946 AV from two divisions currently providing garrisons. There is 428 AV in armour with another 178 AV once the 3rd Tank division recombines. By my math that is 10290 AV in total. There are as many as 3-4 IMB's not performing garrison duty that could be added.

Of this 10k AV roughly 1600 is now committed to breaking through to Kunming, so that leaves about 8400 AV that could be massed against Chungking in an all out effort to capture the base. In support, 75% of all the artillery and the entire bomber force could be deployed against Chungking. Most units are 100% prepped for Chungking which could increase my AV substantially during assaults.

It would tie up 80% of my forces in China for months, but if successful that would be a long term reduction in China's ability to counterattack until Chungking or Chengtu is recaptured. I'm sure a number of divisions could be bought out for the Pacific at bargain rates if the base fell.

[Lokasenna]

It's my understanding that the respawned units don't respawn at 1/3 the total....they respawn at 1/3 what they died with. I could be entirely wrong...