Super Americans in SPWAW 4.5

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:54 am

Let me tell you what i see as an Allied player and why i think things go the way they do ..
when i go to kill a Tiger i usually start with infantry preferably bazooka typicaly i can get off several shots before i am spotted not alway sometimes i get spoted moving into position .. thats fine the tiger has fired rally and return fire once tiger gets a point of suppresion and returns fire i pull my first M-10 into position but i don't fire tiger switches targets maybe fires maybe not i pull up second M-10 i hex maybe two into firing position 2 man scouts have located these position and LOS for me as planed ahead of time no extra movement of M-10's first M-10 fires tiger opfire other tigers around for sure but none with LOS maybe smoke maybe trees hills whatever probably missed third shot suppressed from bazooka (bazooka maybe dead still two shots for rear M-1 Bazooka is not a reliable kill but maybe stun crew probably not ..second M-10 takes firstshot this is first for sure unsupressed shot maybe tiger fires back now in worse shape oddswise first M-10 re-engages, tiger has to switch again (Arrelens you can explain to the folks what I am doing to the odds and why ) 1st and second M-10's of the platoon switch fire 3rd M-10 or another bazooka now firing mutiple shots unanswered by opfire odds are looking good .....
What i see is Tigers unsuported by smallarms to button up OPEN TOPPED M-10s pull up into multiple LOS and start exchanging fire with each unit engageing them in the sequence of the opfire response ( and when i set a kill zone in use the range limit to co-ordinate the opfire it ain't accidental ) and if The Tiger survives a second fresh tiger comes up and gets a similar round of opfire because one tiger with 5 shots can't even start to exhaust the opfire from 2 US units and then what do we have two suppressed tigers in a kill zone ...Honest to God and i mean to embarras no one but i had a player in a pbem game better than 4 to one tell me good game and i don't want to take anything from you but .. the game is unfair to germans ...
I plan on 5-10 hits to kill a tiger sometimes i get one in 3 or 4 hits i have gotten them first shot at range from berm popup usually because the other guy has range limits set down to where i get first unsuppressed shot from hill and i don't care how many tigers are down there 2 maybe 3 shots and gone behind the hill come and get me into the kill zone what no recon ?? infantry maybe maybe arty smoke do the d key if they cant get to cover or worse turn around for cover without D keying first.. seriously this is what i see

frank1970 · Post by **frank1970** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 1:31 pm

to Ammosgt:
Madam,
I do not want to critic you in any way, but would you please have an eye on the reality?
Your complains about missing US arty are right, absolutely, no problem.
But there is German arty missing as well: 21cm-guns, 60cm mortars, 80cm railguns,... .
The missing sea support is because your game is a meeting engagement. You do not get seasupport in Meeting engagements (by the way, there were Axis BBs, too in the Med-theater, would you like the German player to have some?) that is the game engine, not the OoB.

At last I want to thank you for your enormous number of replies to this topic, it would be very informative if I would understand them, but some are a little big, written without point or comma. As a not native speaker I have really problems to get your point.

Sincerely
Frank

PS Germans can be friendly, too!

[This message has been edited by Frank (edited February 27, 2001).]

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 2:40 pm

Frank yes i would like everybody to have everything. The Point i was making , however, was not that one particular scenario does not have naval support..were I to have a beach map i would with version 4.5 have naval fire support...but in 5.0 it will be removed. Naval Fire Support from large guns capeable of freely counterbattery firing available german guns will be gone ..were the US OOB's to recognize that the US had 8" arty before 1944 ..especially the extrodinary part US 8' Arty played in the Italian Campaign then i would have counterbattery fire capability .. but instead of fixing that the answer will be removal on any US 8' capability ..the US had an exceptionally long ranged 155mm LongTom . When i saw that the long range 8' was being removed i asked nicely that the 155mm long tom be considered as a replacement ..i never got an answer or an aknowledgement of my post . Likewise postings to allow US and Russian Rocket launchers onboard so they could benefit from ammo trucks has also not been responded to . It is my general experience that if it is to be addressed in a coming upgrade you get an answer if it isn't you either get a no and a reason or ignored . I appreciate that there is a wide variety of artilery that is not in the game and yet somehow most all basic national capabilities genneraly get addressed ..my Point being that i have never before seen an entire national characteristic removed before...in particular the ability for the US with commonly assigned divisional and Corp assets to outrange and counterbattery Axis artilery and not just by removing one item..but due to complaints from Axis players that specifically US arty makes it to hard to move. To remove from the game as far as PBEM is concerned not only 8" but naval and particularily in the context of Salerno where i do believe that naval gunfire had some legendary results against Tiger tanks but i have also seen that story about Tunsia and Normandy in all fairness. We are on yet another active thread about some injustice to the german forces inherient in the game ..ok fine this kind of thing should be looked at and where posibile fixed ..but when Allied players bring up the same kind of topic and place the details compleat with calculation and instruction on how to replicate the problem we get ignored or told to shut up..we get told to post to forums where it has been posted before and ignored .and we see further inroads further reducing allied capability responded to .some of these issues are months old ..they certainly come with more detail than driving a tank thru 14 rifle grenade hits and a feeling that somehow things don't go as well as they should ..The US historically killed and captured axis forces in mulitiples of any Allied loss just as Germans did against the Russians and the Japanes did against the Allies early in the war .. I am not asking for one of a kind 940mm US Mortars I am not asking for any capability or new units to be added to the game ..I am asking that existing units in the OOB's be left in place or added to formations so they are available to PBEM players who cannot freely edit their OOB without it affecting PBEM. I am asking that an important nation charcteristic and capability ie. superior us arty in range response time ammo supply that is necesary to reflect nation tactical doctrine not be removed at the request of the Axis players ..
because it makes it harder on them . I am asking that the overall average German results against Russia not be used as a yardstick to establish handicaps for the Axis player so overall average similar results can be obtained against a foe on the western front where they were never achieved as an average result . And i am asking for a civil answer .. Further the basic cost of artillery is going to rise and the ammo load out for offboard reduced further affecting the situation and reducing artillery's role in the game.. in most cases for most armies with similar capeability and comparible artillery ..this would not be a big deal but the US relied on Arty more had a more effective arty doctrine and better ammo supplies and better fuses for that matter. I am not asking that US arty be increased in leathality to reflect superior US VT fusing or anything special ..just that it be left somewhat more capabile.. It is faster in response time i don't know that it should be as instantanious as it is but should the delay be increased i would ask that other nations arty be adjusted as well . To deny the Germans a detailed modeling of an effective tank would be unthinkable .. but US arty and i think arty in general is not seen as important, somehow a secondary issue ..and that might be true for some countries .. but artilery for the americans in WW2 is what the Panzers are for the germans ..they key element in the tactical equation .. all i ever expected was for documentable problems to be looked at and to get the same attention and respect as unreproducable alegations of extordinary invincibility on the part of Amercan Shermans . But here i am facts and figures in hand getting flamed by the folks who work on the OOB's .... better than being ignored i supose....

frank1970 · Post by **frank1970** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:03 pm

I did not know that all heavy US artillery will possibly be removed from the OoB, but when this will be done it is a real disadvantage for the American players.
But I have to disagree about the Panzers. They were an important part of the German tactics, but in WW2 and for the Wehrmacht the infantry was still the Queen of the battlefield. German infantrie was very good trained and the whole system was organized in a way that each lower degree could do the job of the next higher. In 1944 most companies were ordered by sergants, Bns by captains,... . The ability to react clever and adapted to the situation was the main advantage the Wehrmacht had against the Soviets and against the Allies. Lidell Hart gave the Allied infantrists very bad marks in the fight against German Infantry. What made the Allies stron was their good artillery support and their fighterbombers which destroyed the German supply lines. Both can not be modeled by the gameengine. But it might be modeled by the OoB, by giving German forces less ammo in 1944-1945 or something like that.

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:24 pm

Frank well OK we can agree that arty was important and armor was important and that infantry was the root of any army and i am sure everybody has a favorite branch LOL .. but as to the basics of the problem it sounds very much like we agree that US arty need to NOT be disassembeled ..and thats enough to make me happy ..liddel Hart had his own Ideas on alot of stuff military LOL and he was way ahead of his time with some of his thoughts ...

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:39 pm

Just a quick note (my eyes hurt) that the arty modification is in no way country specific, no guns higher than 150/155mm from any country will be buyable, neither was it requested by players from any specific country.

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:12 pm

Kharan yeah i get that not country specific but since the Germans didn't have a whole lot of naval bombardment stuff and amphib operations and didn't have any good common field arty above 150mm no matter how innocent it sounds it doesn't remove anything from the germans and it does reduce real capability from the allies ..and that 155mm limit doesn't explain why the 155mm US Long Tom is not being added and why only the germans get onboard rocket arty and it doesn't address the fact that US arty had significant larger regular ammo supply and all the other ..it's the same for everybody stuff ...to me thats like saying on all tanks over 50 tons are out of the game..thats not nation specific but that would only hrts germans and we both know it .. How is reducing a bonififed US advantage in Arty to the same ammo and gun and range sizes that allow the best german arty in the game come off as fair ..the allies had better arty the germans can't handle it so it is being pulled plain and simple

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:18 pm

Kahran the posts requesting reducing US arty capability are for all to see on the OOB froum as are my posts about keeping it in or replacing the US 8" with the LongTom as are my questions about the german kill bonus against the americans and the point cost of american gear inrelationship to german gear ya got the best us tanks priced right up there with the german armor and it didn't help give the germans automatic victories so now you are cutting the arty out from under the US so the germans can win easier i haven't seen anything that says otherwise and flaming me for bringing it up again by the OOB staff isn't going to make you right and me wrong

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:30 pm

This is NOT just about removing 8" this is about removing 8" AND raising arty prices to reduce the arty roll in the game AND equalizing the ammo loads so the US doesn't get an advantage AND remove navalfire support AND not inculding 155's that outrange german arty AND not allowing allies to have onboard rockets ..
thats quite a list of changes all favoring the Axis player and all handicaping the Allies ..how do you explain it ?

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:44 pm

Who said ANYTHING about removing arty greater than 155mm???!!! I assure you, I have the latest oob's, and they are there! They just aren't available onboard. And also, who from the oob staff is flaming anyone, I sure as hell ain't, and I know all the guys on it, and most of them don't post much here as it is... who is it?

------------------
Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:05 pm

Originally posted by Warhorse:
Who said ANYTHING about removing arty greater than 155mm?

From "artillery costs"-thread (http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003149.html):

Paul Vebber
Administrator
Posts: 2002
Registered: Mar 2000
posted December 06, 2000 12:05

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BUt the last thing I have to do before I send the OOBs to David is run them through "spreadsheet from hell" and rescale the arty units so 155s are the largest arty you can buy (all others will be relegated for scenario use) that should help fix the arty cost problem.

He didn't have the time then, so I figured that was the modification being done this time.

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:04 pm

I stand corrected since i just found out that Arrlens who flamed me wasn't on the OOB crew i stand corrected and appologize...
I would like to add that the wulfraums are 280mm so i assume that the wulfraums being over 203mm(8") will not be on board anymore then ???

sits back watchs tap dance start

USMCGrunt · Post by **USMCGrunt** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:48 pm

Just to throw my 2 cents in, I know this topic has mainly focused on the ETO and US vs. Germany, but there is one place that the use of HEAVY guns(14inch and 16inch naval support) was very prevelent. Pacific Theatre. Arty support from naval big guns was widely used when assaulting the beaches and in some scenarios I've played, it was literally the deciding factor between having my Marines dead on the beach, and accomplishing a breakthrough to the interior. Since the Pacific is my favorite theatre to play in, I have a vested interest in seeing that my Naval Gun support is not cast aside. Not including this type of arty for the US would be a severe blow to the abilities of anyone playing the Marines in a Pacific scenario or campaign.

------------------
USMCGrunt

-When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:02 pm

Grunt thanks for the support ..i think everybody has a BIG stake in the game modeling both weapons and national capabilites properly and aribitrary cross the board restrictions serve no one well.. just look at the latest info "large caliber arty not on board" ..ok taken literally that means german wulfraums 280mm are out and US 4.5" ( 110mm or 115 mm somebody check my math ) are in and on board ....well thats what the man said

[This message has been edited by AmmoSgt (edited February 27, 2001).]

BlitzSS · Post by **BlitzSS** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:24 pm

Originally posted by USMCGrunt:
Just to throw my 2 cents in, I know this topic has mainly focused on the ETO and US vs. Germany, but there is one place that the use of HEAVY guns(14inch and 16inch naval support) was very prevelent. Pacific Theatre. Arty support from naval big guns was widely used when assaulting the beaches and in some scenarios I've played, it was literally the deciding factor between having my Marines dead on the beach, and accomplishing a breakthrough to the interior. Since the Pacific is my favorite theatre to play in, I have a vested interest in seeing that my Naval Gun support is not cast aside. Not including this type of arty for the US would be a severe blow to the abilities of anyone playing the Marines in a Pacific scenario or campaign.

Better then ever!!!

Eisbaer · Post by **Eisbaer** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:53 am

There was a lot of talk about big guns, but i remember the beginning of this thread, the question, if something is wrong with the germans in pbem-games.
Today I made some intensive test. It is the same test I made a few years ago with the original Steel Panthers, as a friend drew my attention, that something screwy was going on with the SPOB-file. (And indeed, i think there was an curious factor or something else, that simulates non existant armor values on most of the better german tanks. But after changing these adresses to zero and raising the values at the adresses of the real armor, everything was o.k.) Now, I am very observant, if I read, that someone seems to be favoured.

For this test, I created a map with 10 Lanes seperated by Level 3 Hills. And then I placed 10 tanks for both, german and allied, head to head in a distance of 8 to 12 hexes and saved it as scenario.

Looks something like this:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
GT AT
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
GT AT
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
GT AT
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Now, I "played" this scenario hotseat or pbem several times and let either allied or german tanks fire first.
I tried it with Pz IV, Stug IV, Tigers and King Tigers, Panthers, Shermans, Jumbos and others.

The best results I had with Panther Vg vs. Jumbo 76, where the Jumbo seems to be a little bit stronger, but even in one pbem game the germans shot 6 Jumbos and lost only 2 Panthers. In an other game the outcome was exactly reverse. But also with other tanks, I really NEVER had the feeling, that there were something wrong with the armor-values. I never had the impression, that one side is prefered. I admit, it's a really simple test and it only checks the main gun against front armor, but I think it would detect some failures. Now, I am REALLY satisfied with SPWAW

Thanks a lot!!!

ursus · Post by **ursus** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 4:09 am

I must agree with USMC Grunt, taking away offshore bombardment would cripple any beach assault! As for the other arty arguments i am for what is historacly acurate, which i know can be hard to corralate to a game. I myself do not feel that this games scale of units (Battalion.) would get a lot of (if any) Large Guns 155mm+ for off board support. The USA was know for huge supplies and to limit the US arty ammo supply because some people do not like it, is wrong, unless they are currently wrong and not historacly correct. I would like to get back to the initial topic of this thread and see if there is any truth to it or not. I hope the people that can address this are doing so and give us the results.

Arralen · Post by **Arralen** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 6:06 pm

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
I stand corrected since i just found out that Arrlens who flamed me wasn't on the OOB crew i stand corrected and appologize...

.. they just "forgot me" they said ... strange, huh ?
I mean, I'm working on the German OOB for months, and they just forget to add my to their list !!

And 'bout flaming .. see below

About German naval stuff .. there was plenty of stuff in the latest version of the OOB (that I did, that is), and I even found a way around the 255-points limit.

About Pauls "comment" .. that is rather old, and it never worked out that way seemingly.

Better ask Stuart Millis what he's doing with the OOBs now ...

... s***, sig doesn't work out as intended ..
Should be:
Feel free to flame me - I'll flame back ...
... mmhh, maybe I'll flame you anyway !

#ASCII pic of cute little sleeping dragon#

Arralen at http://Arralens.purespace.de/

[This message has been edited by Arralen (edited February 28, 2001).]

Colonel von Blitz · Post by **Colonel von Blitz** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 10:14 pm

This one is for you, AmmoSgt. I see you are furiously defending for greater arty support for allies, that is understandable. Though I prefer Axis side, I back you up in this arty matter. But I have a little question concerning this matter: was that huge American arty available usually at corps or division level or was it available at lower (regiment or even battalion) levels too? At least those massive Soviet bombardments were available usually at Division level only. I mean the battles SPWAW usually represents seldom include more than battalion or two per side and that is hardly a regiment level. If major part of American arty was available at Division level only like their Soviet counterparts, then it would be unjustified to have that arty in SPWAW battles.

On the other hand, I'd like to see even the most rare HUGE guns in SPWAW too, more than just for scenario use only (I never ever play scenarios anyway, they suck!!). I say, keep those 155mm and above guns to be used freely, then it's up to players to agree whether these guns are allowed or not at battle in question.

Colonel von Blitz

[This message has been edited by Colonel von Blitz (edited February 28, 2001).]

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 1:37 pm

Blitz all arty in all armies fires eventually in support of maneuver units at the lowest level .technicaly for the squad if you want ...the proper issue is what is doctrine and how are Bde Div and Corp assest shared .. and unlike most armies that have a rather ridged concept the 6th Div's art supports 6 th Div troops ...
Bde's had arty Bn but Corp could task it matter of course Corp has Arty Reg or two and Bn exicuting the plan needs arty if a battery anywhere is untasked and in range sure why not .. it is that cross tasking doctrine that was in fact so different and the internal friction involved was so low because ammo supply was so great and nobody had to play a zero sum game that the doctrine could be exicuted freely ...
What part of a Corp moves to contact .. whatever portion is moving gets all the tubes or a great portion US maneuver Arty Corp level was compleately unburdened from deep interdiction mission because US had air that did it better .. yeah Arty fired some intridiction but nothing like Axis had to thats where this whole big gun not to SPWAW scale comes from European no air power usage not from standard US Army Usage and Doctrine