Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters.

[RoryAndersonCDT]

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

ORIGINAL: Baloogan
For missile engagements it doesn't seem to have an effect. Its where aircraft get into a dogfight that Hi-Fi mode really helps resolve combat.

When you say "helps resolve combat", do you mean that in non-HiFi mode, weapons miss more frequently than in HiFi mode? Or that the animation is far smoother in HiFi ?

In non-HiFi mode 2 aircraft who are circling to try to unmask their cannons at certain speeds just circle around eachother until one runs out of fuel. I saw it happen with F-18s during one of my episodes, I'll try to create a scenario which exhibits this behavior and post it as a bug in the development forum.

[RoryAndersonCDT]

Posted at tm.asp?m=3460878&mpage=1&key=&#3460878

[Broncepulido]

The ultimate site about F-16 variants, weapons and ECM gear: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions.html

[Broncepulido]

And here a very good and comprehensive site (but in the lovely Brazilian Portuguese!!!), recopilatory of almost every open source data about AAMs, showing missile type-by-type historical low probability to hit/to kill. I think probably the same outcome with AIM-120 against a better prepared enemy and with better ECM and campaing preparation than Iraq or Serbia: http://sistemasdearmas.com.br/

[Broncepulido]

In short, at the bottom of this page, the AIM-120 historical PK is between 40%-60%: http://sistemasdearmas.com.br/aam/amraam3desemp.html

[mrfeizhu]

It seems that ecm or maneuverability is over rated for aircraft, missiles just don't seem to hit them, (Sam's and AA missiles). Hit rates are really a subjective number. How many Air to air missiles are fired in anger? not many, in test there are a lot more, but tests are tests. The game will crunch numbers and come up with the answer it is programmed to give. The game is a game its not a simulation of real life, no game can be. Its the programmers universe and the books or information he uses to get numbers from. But all war games are like that, If you play war in the Pacific you know you have the atomic bomb and B-29's coming towards the end of the war. Is the game fun to play and make you think? yes of course it does. Is it worth the money it cost? yes of course. After playing the game for a while, if I were a government in the programmers universe , I would just buy submarines

[JCR]

If you look at even modern dogfights, AAM hit rate isn't 100%
How many AMRAAMs did they fire at the MiGs over Serbia in 1999?
And not all US vs Iraq encounters resulted in the MiGs being killed, sometimes they just escaped.

[Flankerk]

Is this before or after the proficiency is taken into account? As far as I can see that resolves this one. I'm also not all that convinced that aircraft are overated. Air to air I agree there aren't as many combats we can draw upon, but on surface to air, I think we have some good examples. I seem to recall a YouTube video showing an F-18 I think dodging mutliple incoming SAM's over an extended period. Must admit I especially like the fact that any of my fighters running out of missiles and going RTB seems to attract a straggler trying (and usually succeeding) to pick them off with a rear aspect shot.

[JCR]

Not so much proficiency, but energy conservation.
Radical evasive maneuvers take energy, meaning the pilot sacrifices either airspeed or altitude or both to evade. Depending on his airspeed and altitude, there is a finite amount of energy he can use for evasion.
For example take a fighter flying low and fast and getting shot at by a missile. The pilot doesn't have altitude but speed, so he will make some sort of radical turn to evade. It succeeds. However when he is engaged a second time, he is low and slow because the turn bled off his speed, so he can't evade the next missile.

[ExMachina]

Modeling aircraft energy sounds ideal and about a month ago CMANO developers were considering such an idea. Sunburn said in this thread

The solution we are considering revolves around the concept of bleeding energy (primarily kinematic but also potential) at every evasion, gradually recovering it with enough time, so there is an incentive to attack a unit with successive blows in order to exhaust its ability to evade.

I hope they follow through with the idea [:)]

[Dimitris]

Let me repeat my request for _message logs_ that show the exact reasons that the missiles miss.

I'm amazed that guys are endlessly talking about this and nobody posts the _hard data_.

The weapon endgame contains a long pipeline of actions (expendable countermeasures, jammers, maneuver evasion etc. etc., each affected by many factors). Unless we can examine in detail which of the links in the chain is problematic (if there is indeed a problem), we simply cannot fix it.

[JCR]

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Let me repeat my request for _message logs_ that show the exact reasons that the missiles miss.

I'm amazed that guys are talking, talking, talking, talking about this and nobody posts the _hard data_.

We are on a internet forum, don't bother us with facts!

[jdkbph]

1. I can't post it because I haven't seen it.

2. What we're doing (or at least what I'm doing) is called a sidebar... for (my own) entertainment purposes only.

JD

[mrfeizhu]

Energy conservation has to do with the pilot's proficiency, a better pilot will be better at it, if you put an experience pilot against the an inexperienced pilot
in the same type of plane the experienced should win, unless he was having a bad day.

[john688]

The weapon endgame contains a long pipeline of actions (expendable countermeasures, jammers, maneuver evasion etc. etc., each affected by many factors

Could you please give us some more information about this?

I have had to poor through the Build roll thread to find things like this..

"AAW missiles now have their base hit probabilities adjusted for range (from launch point to impact), to reflect their reduced maneuverability at extended range. Rocket-powered weapons (most missiles) have their PHs maximized at 50% of maximum range and gradually reduced up to 50% of the base-PH at full range. Ramjet-powered weapons (Sea Dart, SA-6, Meteor etc.) are less affected; they maintain their full base-PHs up to 75% of maximum range and their max PH reduction is 25% of original."

It would be nice if they were in the manual.

[Dimitris]

http://theaviationist.com/2014/01/29/f15-vs-mig-23/

Four AIM-7Ms fired, three misses and one hit, against a [probably] non-maneuvering, [certainly] no-ECM MiG-23. In a battle environment as close to a training range as possible (DS).

Missiles miss, guys. Even under the best of circumstances.

[dillonkbase]

I am a fan of including an evasion penalty, otherwise what is the point of my 2 missile volley, I can get the same probabilities and spread my missiles out assuring I don't waste missiles.

[mikmykWS]

Yeah I think we've still got the loss of energy penalty on our list. I think the trouble is how long does that penalty going on for etc.
Little tricky.

Mike

[erichswafford]

I've looked at this fairly exhaustively and the pH of the various common missiles seems to match up quite well with historical examples. Working on documenting this soon, but I've got a newborn and my time is incredibly limited.

I think it's important to remember this is a wargame and not a flight sim. There are some necessary simplifications out near the edges where Operational meets Tactical. The focus is firmly on Operational concepts and not on individual dogfights. As long as the end results adhere reasonably closely to historical examples (and reward appropriate tactics), them I'm happy.

Frankly, Luck has a lot to do with how individual encounters may go - both in the game and in historical situations. But if you're doing your job right, you'll be putting the enemy in a position where they have to get lucky all the time. Eventually they won't.

That's where the focus of CMANO lies, IMHO - not the physical modeling of every last maneuver and tracking the energy of individual aircraft. I'd much rather see things like a more robust mission planning system. As far as I'm concerned, the current Dogfight AI and modeling is spot-on 99% of the time. Revising it right now is very much a "nice to have" in my book.

[cwemyss]

ORIGINAL: kondor999
....but I've got a newborn and my time is incredibly limited

Congrats, me too! Three weeks old tonight.

I have some GREAT scenario/campaign ideas.... and so far, about two hours a week to play with CMANO.

Wouldn't trade it for anything, though.