Orel 1943 (ver. 0.51)

[ogar]

This is a quick AAR from a playtest game vs PO. I was able to pull out a draw - my usual result. Although, another tester won an overwhelming victory playing as OKH vs PO.

Here's a quick overview of the scenario :
The focus is on Western Front's attack, spearheaded by 11th Guards Army (center of the red units). Historically, the original plan was for an attack due south, cutting the communications at Karachev and trapping German forces from Orel eastward and southward. This is red-pink arrow.

Once in action, Stalin decided to help out. He ordered a complete re-direction of the attack to capture the city of Bolkhov (blue arrow). Historically, this gave the defenders a chance to close up the initial break-through and start a slow, dogged, defense and ultimate withdrawal from the salient to the Hagen Line and Bryansk.

The scenario takes this into account - so Bolkhov is both a high VP city and the trigger for extra forces for STAVKA. The purple circles indicate the other locations of high VP cities.

[ogar]

Turn 1 -- before the onslaught. The Soviets have -- 3 -- artillery divisions ! Plus enough howitzer, gun, mortar and rocket regiments, that for my sanity's sake, I organized them into brigades. All that artillery -- and guards rifle divisions plus heavy tank/SU regiments -- will take a toll on the defenders.

[ogar]

And the results from turn 3 ...

FWIW, I try and defend in place (especially the initial fortified hexes) for a few turns, before the losses get too high. Then try -- the operative word -- to extricate and rebuild behind another position built by the incoming reinforcements. Easier for me to type than do.

[ogar]

In the center of the previous image, you can see a Soviet tank brigade just SE of Ulyanovo and confronted by panzers from 5 Pz Div. It's nice that the defenders have stopped them. Unfortunately the bad news is in the next News thread...

unless you're playing as STAVKA, you do not want to see this. It means the Soviets have penetrated far enough into your lines to trigger _their_ special reinforcements... 4th Tank Army. Have I mentioned that Western Front - in addition to their regiments of T-34s and KVs and Churchills -- start the operation with 2 tank corps and 1 mech corps ? I'll ask the question, "Is that enough Soviet armor ?" but I already know the answer, "No. There's more."

[ogar]

And the results of that trigger...

still, this is not too bad (for me). I was feeling somewhat confident of holding Karachev and Orel - even if Bolkhov would be lost eventually. We'll see how that forecast turns out.

[Telumar]

Are you playing with standard 3.4 or withe the Opart 3XBb .exe?

[ogar]

@Telumar,

This AAR game was done under 3xB. Earlier versions were tested under plain 3.4. And I have run some PO v PO under the AAA mod.

Overall losses to both sides do not seem that different under any of the 3 variants. But this last game, it seemed to me, that I was able to disengage a bit easier than under ordinary 3.4.

[ogar]

and on turn 8...

things are not looking too bad. Oh sure, that's _another_ Guards Army that showed up on the left hand side, but, overall, I'm holding my own.

[ogar]

Turn 12

Hmm, was I a little too confident ? Actually, by turn 8, I knew I was not back-pedalling fast enough, and was going to caught defending too far forward.

You can see this occurring. And clever little Elmer, -- he's sneaking some advance units around my open flank to snaffle Orel while I'm focused on Bolkov. Lucky for me there are some defenders and reinforcements in the Orel neighborhood to hold Elmer off.

[ogar]

I cut to the end with turn 23.

Turns 13 - 22 were all repeats of my trying to wriggle exhausted, worn down units from out of either the center kessel or the Bolkhov kessel. I lost a number, but escaped with enough to keep throwing something in the way of Elmer.

Eventually I gave up on holding Bolkhov. By then, Soviet units were battling in the Orel outskirts - evaporating the FW-190 unit I'd kept there. As much as I tried to hang on to Orel itself, Elmer stole in on turn 16. And there went my bonus 50 VPs for keeping Orel.

The pic below shows one of my units back in Karachev but it barely lasted a half-turn. Elmer took the city for good the next turn, and I called the game a draw after 24 turns.

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: ogar

@Telumar,

This AAR game was done under 3xB. Earlier versions were tested under plain 3.4. And I have run some PO v PO under the AAA mod.

Overall losses to both sides do not seem that different under any of the 3 variants. But this last game, it seemed to me, that I was able to disengage a bit easier than under ordinary 3.4.

I see. I started a game with standard 3.4 and Elmer had a hard time breaking through. Will try another run with the 3xB patch. Or 3.6.

EDIT: Off topic, but your minor roads - which mod package are they from?

[ogar]

Telumar,

Elmer - and me, too -- always has a difficult time making that break-through(s).  Usually, there's a breakthrough in the wooded-swampy sector south of Kozelsk/east of Ulyanovo, and really, that's all it takes.  Oh, and some games the break-through from Elmer does not happen till turn 3. 

Minor roads -- they're yours.  From one of the earlier packages, I think.  (The combination of the YELLOW roads and big black RR means this is my Op. Neva Anti-Snow-Blindness graphic package.  Thank you from keeping me from snow-blindess !  The RR is an old bmp from Silvanski's package -- thanks, Sil.)

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: ogar

Minor roads -- they're yours.  From one of the earlier packages, I think.  (The combination of the YELLOW roads and big black RR means this is my Op. Neva Anti-Snow-Blindness graphic package.  Thank you from keeping me from snow-blindess !  The RR is an old bmp from Silvanski's package -- thanks, Sil.)

Oh, yes. roads YELLOW. You know, i'm beginning to lose track on some of that stuff..

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: ogar

Usually, there's a breakthrough in the wooded-swampy sector south of Kozelsk/east of Ulyanovo, and really, that's all it takes.  Oh, and some games the break-through from Elmer does not happen till turn 3. 

First: Know that i find the forum post format better suited for discussing sce design/testing than E-Mail communication..

wooded-swampy sector south of Kozelsk/east of Ulyanovo: Yes, that happened here, too. Additionally the very right flank melted away at turn 5. Once the Soviets are through it gets even more ugly. Sometimes even armored counterattck can not push them back, as they're usually backed up by artillery units, while the Germans must attack with their StuKas as the only artillery unit avilable until the first ones show up. Is it intended that there are no German artillery units at the start? Because i think if they had any, Elmer would have very bad chances as the usual counterattack would be more likely to succeed. So from a play-balance view this seems to be right.

I had a couple of double turns. If you want to avoid that, there are two ways: Opening the scenario in hotseat mode and switch the according side to PO control on turn 1, which however can produce problems with PO activate events that are set to trigger on turn 1. Or you add some off-map hexes with force 1 'high mobile units' as i did in Anzio 2km.

Retreat from the enemy is very difficult if you're running out of "reconaissance battlegroups" to cover disengagements. However i was able to somewhat retreat in 'some' order and lost only one regiment so far. At turn 8 it looks like this (i don't know how i shall make it through the next 14 turns, but we will see):

[Telumar]

Re double turns. One turn later than the above screenshot in the Bolkhov sector - Elmer just had such a double turn and the result is catastrophic:

[ogar]

First, thank you for testing this and posting snapshots -- I expected I would need to revise some of the scenario so it's very helpful to see what other players see, and read their questions.  Myself, I find playing the German side very nerve-wracking - not enough units, break throughs everywhere, those *&^%$ artillery divisions/brigades.

I did run some quick side-by-side games of plain old 3.4 vs 3xB - and Elmer does have an easier time of it on 3xB, but even on 3.4 there's a concentrated break-through of 5 -7 hexes in the center by the end of turn 3.  Perhaps only 1 or 2 hexes deep, but that is all it takes.

I have (at least) two primary goals with this scenario -- see if I can produce a solidly working TOAW scenario and use that to work out for myself some of "how did that happen" in central Russia between Jan. 1942 and July 1944.  I'm still working at trying to achieve the first item.

Re 'double-turns' .. I appreciate their way to emphasizing the shift in player momentum vs PO.  I do not especially enjoy them when they occur against me, but I think they illustrate the costs of operational plans not working as well as intended.  Still, I may opt to stabilize turn order a la Anzio.

Counter-attacking is tough - especially when within range of those artillery divisions.  Even in garrison mode, they do carve out a no-go zone.  I've learned the hard way to only counter-attack when I know the targets are weakened and away from their artillery divisions.

I've had limited success with using HQs - NOT the Corps HQs, but Gr Harpe, Esebeck, Army HQ - to help extricate some units.  That and letting a dug in unit 'resist' at ML to pop it back when attacked.

I have to admit that the German supporting artillery is guess-work on my part.  So far I have been unable to find specifics on what Corps or Army level artillery 2nd Panzer Army possessed in July 1943 -- I can find OOBs of such for 9th Army all the way down to battery level.  My suspicion is that any such units with 2nd Panzer in June 1943 were assigned to 9th Army for Zitadelle.  (The 2 artillery units coming in as reinforcments are my best guesses as to what the reinforcing formations would bring with them.  The werfer regiment was under XLI Panzer Korps (Harpe) for Zitadelle; the bundled artillery units are long-range units originally on 2nd Panzer Army's OOB for May and June.)

And I'll remind everyone that this scenario is just one-third of the Soviet counter-offensive.  A similar sized operation happens east of Orel (right-hand of the screen-snaps) and another is going on just south (off the bottom of the map).   German resources were very thinly stretched.   One of the difficulties in designing, I am finding, is trying to use historical strengths or positions or constraints, and get similar results when played under TOAW.  Not as tough as winkling out from the Bolkov trap, but tough enough.