Fast transport

[castor troy]

Hi

I don't know if the old way it is supposed to work is still valid, but if fast transports should work in a Tokyo Express style, meaning going in at full speed during the night, load/unload during the night and
get out again to be at max possible range away from the target during the day, then it isn't working anymore in the beta.

Fast transport has never really worked reliable in AE (opposing to WITP when it just worked fine), but in the beta, my fast transports fail 100% of the time! They sprint in during the night and start loading/unloading
at night but are just sitting there during the day, showing "loading" or "unloading". And this is how it works 100% of the time, no matter what I try to do. The way it works now, one could just delete the fast
transport option at all.

So, is it supposed to work this way in the beta, has there been a change, or is it just totally broken? [&:]

[Lokasenna]

Hrm. Mine seem to work OK, though they don't do the Tokyo Express style very often. Perhaps with a smaller load... I think they are still limited by load/unload limits?

[jeffk3510]

Could it be unloading limits at said location?

If you're using APDs or DDs, then you shouldn't be having this issue.

[witpqs]

Castor - Are you talking about troops or also supply-only missions.

Lokasenna - One problem is that you can't tell a TF how much to load. They will always load until full unless loading troops with the 'load only troops (meaning no supply) option turned on, in which case they will load either all the troops or load troops until full.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Castor - Are you talking about troops or also supply-only missions.

Lokasenna - One problem is that you can't tell a TF how much to load. They will always load until full unless loading troops with the 'load only troops (meaning no supply) option turned on, in which case they will load either all the troops or load troops until full.

Right, so you have to "overload" the TF such that you know each ship won't be full.

So if you have 300 troops that you want to drop off, you put 6 DDs in the TF or something. Each DD should load ~50 troops (or some 60, some 48, depending on squad size, etc.).

I'm not sure Fast Transport TFs load supplies at all when loading troops.

[Don Bowen]

Fast Transport works just fine. All the hand-wringing in this thread aside, it correctly represents the issues of unloading.

Fast Transport, like Amphib TF, allows a TF to unload at an enemy held or "dot" base. In addition, Fast Transport frees the TF from the load/unload capacity limitations of a friendly port.

But being put into a Fast Transport TF does NOT increase the load/unload ops capacity of a ship. It does not magically acquire the ability to handle cargo better, does not grow cranes nor acquire landing craft or cargo lighters. All the normal ops limits are in place, including ops points used up in "running in".

It was intentionally coded (along with a number of other unpopular features) to add some reality and to prevent cheating.

I do not remember whether or not the apparently much-loved original WITP had ops limits on Fast Transport. If it did not, it would allow unloading of unlimited troops and supplies in a single night.

[LargeSlowTarget]

I faintly remember having read a long time ago on the forum that the "proper" way to do fast transport is to set the destination first, THEN order to load. It was claimed that the TF will try to project the time / speed / ops points stuff and adjusts the max load accordingly for overnight unloading - with a certain margin of error which may cause being caught in daylight now and then nonetheless. Might be a myth, but worth trying.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Hrm. Mine seem to work OK, though they don't do the Tokyo Express style very often. Perhaps with a smaller load... I think they are still limited by load/unload limits?

well, if they don't do it very often, then it doesn't work, unless there has been a change in how they are supposed to work

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Fast Transport works just fine. All the hand-wringing in this thread aside, it correctly represents the issues of unloading.

Fast Transport, like Amphib TF, allows a TF to unload at an enemy held or "dot" base. In addition, Fast Transport frees the TF from the load/unload capacity limitations of a friendly port.

But being put into a Fast Transport TF does NOT increase the load/unload ops capacity of a ship. It does not magically acquire the ability to handle cargo better, does not grow cranes nor acquire landing craft or cargo lighters. All the normal ops limits are in place, including ops points used up in "running in".

It was intentionally coded (along with a number of other unpopular features) to add some reality and to prevent cheating.

I do not remember whether or not the apparently much-loved original WITP had ops limits on Fast Transport. If it did not, it would allow unloading of unlimited troops and supplies in a single night.

Don, unfortunately it doesn't work fine. The last dozen times when I had two IJN DD trying to pick up 25 paratroopers that have nowhere even nearly the loadcost the two DD could carry the fast transport did what
it always did so far in my campaign (not working): sprinting to target during the night, start loading, finished loading during the day (still showing "loading" while already loaded) and STAYING in the hex. Next
turn the TF then moves out during the night. So if a FT is now supposed to stay at the target hex the whole turn, then it is working. If it is supposed to work like it always did in WITP, meaning sprinting in,
load/unload, sprinting out, then it doesn't work anymore. I don't know if a handful of paratroopers got so much load that two DD couldn't pick them up during the night when two PT could do so but two DD should
have no prob to load up what 5 Mavis transports dropped. As to reality, IJ DD dropped more load onto a "dot base" in real life during a night than two dozen paratroopers even if they only pushed the stuff overboard.
Going with your logic, it took the two DD the night to move in - fine - and then it took them the whole day to pick up 24 soldiers either on a beach or up to level 3 port - not so fine - as the fast transport
doesn't move a single damn hex out of the base during the day, never ever so far in my campaign.

If, like you say, it is because a DD can't load/unload it's capacity within one turn then simply put, there is no way to do Tokyo Express anymore. And it would make fast transport obsolete anyway.

According to the manual, a fast transport should be able to load 100 troop or 100 cargo at a dot base, more so corresponding to a port depending on size. Now that's considerable more than a couple of paras weigh
and the fast transport is even fully loaded, doesn't show any ops point or reduced range, but still shows "loading" during the day (when it is already loaded and should move). Kind of puzzled now, there should
be a coded change to make it more realistic (which it doesn't) meaning it is not working anymore like it did but then it still doesn't work the supposed way it was changed to, not working realistically nor working
as intended it seems (when looking at load rates). [&:]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Castor - Are you talking about troops or also supply-only missions.

Lokasenna - One problem is that you can't tell a TF how much to load. They will always load until full unless loading troops with the 'load only troops (meaning no supply) option turned on, in which case they will load either all the troops or load troops until full.

Pick up troops and the troops I am trying to pick up are a handful paras on two DD. Early stage to take the hundreds of empty bases around. Seeing two DD not being able to pick up two dozen paras during the night
and move out again, makes me certain I won't ever be using fast transport to supply, reinforce, evacuate anything in range of something that could shoot at the destroyers. The 20 times I have seen it not working
in my ongoing campaign so far assures me it also won't work later on. If that is the way it is supposed to be then there won't be a single Tokyo Express, or the Japanese had a huge port to make it possible to unload
on Guadalcanal. Guess they didn't have one, so they must have cheated on the Allied, well knowing how ineffective it was in delivering, but that is not the question here.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I faintly remember having read a long time ago on the forum that the "proper" way to do fast transport is to set the destination first, THEN order to load. It was claimed that the TF will try to project the time / speed / ops points stuff and adjusts the max load accordingly for overnight unloading - with a certain margin of error which may cause being caught in daylight now and then nonetheless. Might be a myth, but worth trying.

interesting, will try that. But that won't help in picking up, as you can't specify a target first, you have to go "load troops" -> "pick up unit" -> "click on the location of the unit"

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

sprinting to target during the night, start loading, finished loading during the day (still showing "loading" while already loaded) and STAYING in the hex.

I'll take a look at this. There could be some issue outside the bounds of Fast Transport processing that is preventing the recognition of completion of loading.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: castor troy

sprinting to target during the night, start loading, finished loading during the day (still showing "loading" while already loaded) and STAYING in the hex.

I'll take a look at this. There could be some issue outside the bounds of Fast Transport processing that is preventing the recognition of completion of loading.

thank you

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: castor troy

sprinting to target during the night, start loading, finished loading during the day (still showing "loading" while already loaded) and STAYING in the hex.

I'll take a look at this. There could be some issue outside the bounds of Fast Transport processing that is preventing the recognition of completion of loading.

I assumed this was a "bug" or something funky happening with one of my FT TFs. They loaded up to their capacity (with some troops still on the ground) and then just sat there. They sat in the hex for an entire extra day. It cost me a CL and at least some damage to DDs if not DDs sunk as well. I believe I posted about it in my AAR against Bullwinkle. I'm not sure if being at an enemy base made a difference, as loading up fragments from friendly bases seems to work just fine (at least for amphibious TFs).

[Don Bowen]

Let me see if I understand...

You'all are talking about picking up troops at a friendly base using a Fast Transport TF?

Is there any issue with unloading at a friendly base?

If it is just loading AT A FRIENDLY BASE, we are talking about an entirely different thing.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Let me see if I understand...

You'all are talking about picking up troops at a friendly base using a Fast Transport TF?

Is there any issue with unloading at a friendly base?

If it is just loading AT A FRIENDLY BASE, we are talking about an entirely different thing.

for me it happens both times. In my current game I'm mostly using it to pick up small units after taking empty bases, happens every time that the fast transport stays in the hex. Have also seen it during delivery
though as I picked up a couple of para squads, dropping them at the next empty base. Took two turns at the base for fast transport "pick up" and two turns for "delivery". In both cases I expected it to take 1 turn
so that the task force is sprinting away during the day. Also tried sprinting in from not maximum range to reduce ops requirements, same result. And reducing the range to target isn't possible during pickup as
you have to be at a friendly base to issue pick up orders.

[Lokasenna]

Have you turned on "load troops only"? I've noticed that sometimes amphibious TFs that are loading troops from small bases I've just taken (like all those islands in the DEI or Solomons areas), the unit will not have enough supply. If I don't select "load troops only", the TF likes to get "stuck" there when there is only 1 supply left at the base. I have to manually Cancel Load Supplies on the TF info screen or they'll never depart.

So since I noticed that, I just always do 'load troops only'.

[Don Bowen]

I just do not see any issue with unloading troops from a Fast Transport TF. The code reads just like I reported earlier - the TF will fully unload or not based on ops points and cargo of the ships in the TF and, if fully unloaded, initiate movement during the same phase.

Any change to this would either require the TF to leave BEFORE fully unloaded or to provide a cheat for quick unloading of Fast Transport TFs. I am not convinced that either is a good idea.

There may well be an issue with picking up troops at a friendly base. The Fast Transport code is centered around dropping off TFs, and there is no special processing for picking up and moving the TF in the same phase. Maybe there should be, maybe not.

Michael is in charge of the code and I'll forward my findings to him.

[erstad]

With regard to the picking up piece, this might relate. I do see issues where a fast transport loads to 99% or whatever and then seems stuck. You can manually cancel the load and it goes, but otherwise it seems stuck. I haven't posted that because I haven't created a good save for debug, but since it might relate I'm mentioning it.

This is pure speculation, but I wonder if it thinks it isn't finished because it's not at 100%, but there's nothing else that can get loaded (i.e., no troop element nor even a single supply point is small enough to fit in the empty space)

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: erstad

With regard to the picking up piece, this might relate. I do see issues where a fast transport loads to 99% or whatever and then seems stuck. You can manually cancel the load and it goes, but otherwise it seems stuck. I haven't posted that because I haven't created a good save for debug, but since it might relate I'm mentioning it.

This is pure speculation, but I wonder if it thinks it isn't finished because it's not at 100%, but there's nothing else that can get loaded (i.e., no troop element nor even a single supply point is small enough to fit in the empty space)

I still have such a save sitting around, I think, from when I was having the issue. I posted it in this thread: tm.asp?m=3524352