What good are P-38s (the airplane, not the can opener, or pistol)?

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: Feltan

I had a P-38 (can opener) on my dog tag chain for years. One of the invaluable tools of the old line. The MRE's of today just destroy the romance.

No more C-rations,

or Jeeps,

or M1911 .45 side arms.

The world has gone to hell!

Regards,
Feltan

You can still get those, can't you? I've been thinking if I ever broke down and got a self defense weapon, that would be it (along with a pump action shotgun). I know it doesn't have the penetration power of a .357 magnum, but I don't want my bullets to go clean through the bad guy and hit some innocent bystanders. [X(]

It's not the caliber you should be concerned with. It's the type of ammo. There are many types of "new" ammo for weapons that address your fear. For instance there is ammo for the 1911 (a favorite of mine) that consists of small balls suspended in a "glob" which will spread out on contact and while providing tremendous "knock-down" power , generally won't penetrate walls (even normal "thin" sheetrock). If you do decide to ever do the "self-defense route" I strongly recommend 1) taking a course 2) joining a gun range to frequently practice (having a gun is having a tool. You need to have the skills to properly use the tool). 3) find a competent Instructor/mentor/gunsmith/sensi to discuss your choice of weapon and ammo in view of your concern. Having a gun as a self defense weapon is a great responsibility. You might just be better off with a baseball bat (depending on your situation). [:)]

BTW if you are serious , or curious , once the weather improves I'd be happy to take you to my range or introduce you to experts who can help you. [:)]

They aren't just for .45's. Mag Safe's (at least the brand I carry) are available for most calibers.

The self defense mag I carry in my 9mm CZ75 is loaded with alternating rounds of 147 grain Federal Hydroshocks (a heavy round for a 9mm with a hollow point that has a shock pike in the center) and Mag Safe 52 grain pre-fragmented +P rounds (a hollow point filled with little BBs embedded in epoxy).

The Mag Safes are the ones designed to expend 100% of their energy in the first surface contacted, which is why they are the types of rounds carried by air marshals.

[Werewolf13]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I just notice the sig "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" and the avatar pic of usersatch for the first time.

I am sure you know that "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" is the motto of the German Nazi-SS - a gang of murderers with more than questionable ideology.

The avatar pic is the symbol of the 2. SS-Panzer-Division "Das Reich".

Although this is a "history" forum and it might be legal at your place to use Nazi mottos and symbols (in my country you could be jailed)

And there in lies the difference between a free nation and one that is not so free.

I find this decidedly out of place and very poor taste - to stay polite.

Me too.

That said:

Freedom comes with a price. There is no right to not be offended. Good guys, bad guys - they all get to express their opinions.

Aside: That is changing in the USA though. Slowly and surely brought on by a bread and circuses environment, a lousy education system that barely teaches history, power hungry politicians and courts that don't want to rock the boat. SUCKS! I feel for my children and grand children. They will not know the freedoms I experienced.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: geofflambert




You can still get those, can't you? I've been thinking if I ever broke down and got a self defense weapon, that would be it (along with a pump action shotgun). I know it doesn't have the penetration power of a .357 magnum, but I don't want my bullets to go clean through the bad guy and hit some innocent bystanders. [X(]

It's not the caliber you should be concerned with. It's the type of ammo. There are many types of "new" ammo for weapons that address your fear. For instance there is ammo for the 1911 (a favorite of mine) that consists of small balls suspended in a "glob" which will spread out on contact and while providing tremendous "knock-down" power , generally won't penetrate walls (even normal "thin" sheetrock). If you do decide to ever do the "self-defense route" I strongly recommend 1) taking a course 2) joining a gun range to frequently practice (having a gun is having a tool. You need to have the skills to properly use the tool). 3) find a competent Instructor/mentor/gunsmith/sensi to discuss your choice of weapon and ammo in view of your concern. Having a gun as a self defense weapon is a great responsibility. You might just be better off with a baseball bat (depending on your situation). [:)]

BTW if you are serious , or curious , once the weather improves I'd be happy to take you to my range or introduce you to experts who can help you. [:)]

They aren't just for .45's. Mag Safe's (at least the brand I carry) are available for most calibers.

The self defense mag I carry in my 9mm CZ75 is loaded with alternating rounds of 147 grain Federal Hydroshocks (a heavy round for a 9mm with a hollow point that has a shock pike in the center) and Mag Safe 52 grain pre-fragmented +P rounds (a hollow point filled with little BBs embedded in epoxy).

The Mag Safes are the ones designed to expend 100% of their energy in the first surface contacted, which is why they are the types of rounds carried by air marshals.

Good point! I've used them on my P-38 (Walther , not Lockheed![:D]). And with my spouses M-9 (The US military version of the Beretta 92F). I've even used them and similar rounds in my old fashion army single action Colt 45 (clone) peacemaker! That's serious old school with a new bang! [:D] State of the art 1873 meets 2013! [:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I just notice the sig "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" and the avatar pic of usersatch for the first time.

I am sure you know that "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" is the motto of the German Nazi-SS - a gang of murderers with more than questionable ideology.

The avatar pic is the symbol of the 2. SS-Panzer-Division "Das Reich".

Although this is a "history" forum and it might be legal at your place to use Nazi mottos and symbols (in my country you could be jailed)

And there in lies the difference between a free nation and one that is not so free.

I find this decidedly out of place and very poor taste - to stay polite.

Me too.

That said:

Freedom comes with a price. There is no right to not be offended. Good guys, bad guys - they all get to express their opinions.

Aside: That is changing in the USA though. Slowly and surely brought on by a bread and circuses environment, a lousy education system that barely teaches history, power hungry politicians and courts that don't want to rock the boat. SUCKS! I feel for my children and grand children. They will not know the freedoms I experienced.

Offendedness (yes I know that's not a REAL word....at least Not Yet!) Traditionally was a result of a breach of manners. When a society replaces good manners, good citizenship and common sense with law , then that society has worse problems that it seems. When the question of the right to be offended conflicts with the right of free speech , I'm afraid I have to lean to free speech. Sorry to anyone I've offended. [:D][:D][:D]

[Symon]

ASW1Steve has it perfectly right. We were issued the M1911 back in ‘69/’70. My quals sucked, I could barely hit the side of a barn (from the inside) with it. Nowadays, I have a Taurus PT-92 9mm, and yes, I take range and gun safety courses religiously and periodically. I shoot target loads at the range, but have a mag with hollow points just in case (and God forbid I ever have to use it!).

Hollow points are a bit safer because they mostly expand within the target and stop there without creating large exit areas and continuing their energy dissipation travels to unintended places.

There’s a lot of thoughtful home security folks that recommend against monster bores and monster loads. God forbid you blow a hole thru the perp, and then the wall behind him, and then thru your heater, and maybe through your Mom in a wheelchair in the back bedroom. Round energy and stopping power is over-rated, except perhaps in military situations. Get a good gun that you can handle, and learn to put your rounds on target. That’s the only ticket. And remember, anything that absolutely requires you to shoot it (and pay the price for doing so) is worth tapping twice.

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
When a society replaces good manners, good citizenship and common sense with law , then that society has worse problems that it seems.

Very perceptive, Steve. I like how you think. Ciao. John

[AFIntel]

No survival kit is complete without a couple of these!

[LargeSlowTarget]

Using symbols associated with Nazi barbarism (outside an educational context) is morally wrong, even more so when it appears to signal approval and glorification - whatever the legal situation or your definition of freedom says.

I have lived and worked in the USA and other countries - and I do not feel less free in my home country (which happens to be Germany) just because we have laws against the public display of Nazi symbols.

Germany has laws against political parties (and their symbols) which are anticonstitutional for historical reasons - call it bad experience and being wiser after the event.

These symbols stand for political and ideological positions which are very much against freedom, and although it is a paradox that freedom of speech and opinion is being defended by denying such freedom to a certain minority who want to destroy this very freedom, I can live with that.

Yes, good manners, good citizenship and common sense would be better than a law, but you cannot count on them. Good manners alone should have precluded the use of Nazi symbols here in the forum, but well...

@Castor Troy: I'm not feeling guilty either because born 30 years after the war - but I think we have a moral obligation to speak out against any belittlement of atrocities or the glorification of the culprits.

That said - usersatch can use whatever he wants as sig and avatar as long as it is within forum rules, but has to accept that people will use freedom of speech and opinion to voice disagreement.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
When a society replaces good manners, good citizenship and common sense with law , then that society has worse problems that it seems.

Very perceptive, Steve. I like how you think. Ciao. John

"No offense", but actually I think what Steve said is a banality.

Yes, if any society needs to replace good manners, good citizenship, and common sense with law, then this society has worse problems than it seems. Great finding! Weird that every society has laws against murder, don´t you think?

I hope you don´t mind if I attempt clearify three things:

First, that Austria has a law against Nazi propaganda or symbology has a historical reason. The reason is exactly in line with what Steve said. It exists because, at the end of WWII, Austrian (and German) society emerged from a decade of indoctrination. Many people spent their whole adult life learning that other human beings, Jews, gypsies, handicapped people, are not equal to but worse than the lowest animal. That it did not matter to rob, rape, torture, and kill them. That their dead bodies can be industrialized and parts of their body used as commodity.
The decision that a law needs to be implemented to prevent such an idiology from ever rising again, and that every attempt to reestablish it should be punished by law, was at that time a rational decision. That the law still exists is another matter, but I think US citizens know well how long laws sometimes take to fade away, even if there is no rational cause for them to exist anymore.

Second, the reason why I, and I assume LST as well, reacted in that way, was because the SS was one of the major organziations in the Third Reich actively governing and supporting the mass extinction of the poor "animals" mentioned above. The SS consisted, to a high percentage, of the lowest scum imaginable. It attracted exactly those people which were too weak to stand up against oppression, at the same time only feeling strong in a group, happily accepting the suffering of others for their own safety and happiness, actively humiliating and torturing poor souls who were either 'stupid' enough to think different or had the bad luck of a different skin color, and always being proud of just doing what they were ordered to.

When somebody uses the ID of an SS unit, and its 'Leitmotif', in a way that suggests either pride or admiration, I find this...well...irritating (in an attempt to remain as polite as LST was).

Third, I think the central point of LSTs post has been missed completely because of an unimportant mention of the above cited law, which obviously drew the attention of the Free Speech Avengers. Just a small comment in this regard: I don´t give a fucking (beeeep) rat´s ass (beeeeep) about a law. I don´t need any fucking (beeeeeeep) law to tell me what I personally have find revolting and what not. Strange, when I type that beeep sound in parenthesis, I immediately think of a specific country where many of the verocious defenders of free speech originate from, can you guess which one?

And finally: If somebody created an account using a picture of one of the WTC terrorists as avatar and used a sig line like "We die for Allah", he would, absolutely justified, leave this forum with his pants on fire. No free speech crap, thanksgoodbye.

LST mentioned the law because it exists, but thats a sideshow. He posted because he found something revolting. As do I. Thats the central point. Noone cares about that fucking (beeeeeeeeeep) law.


Hope that clearifies things a bit. [:)]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
When a society replaces good manners, good citizenship and common sense with law , then that society has worse problems that it seems.

Very perceptive, Steve. I like how you think. Ciao. John

"No offense", but actually I think what Steve said is a banality.

Yes, if any society needs to replace good manners, good citizenship, and common sense with law, then this society has worse problems than it seems. Great finding! Weird that every society has laws against murder, don´t you think?

I hope you don´t mind if I attempt clearify three things:

First, that Austria has a law against Nazi propaganda or symbology has a historical reason. The reason is exactly in line with what Steve said. It exists because, at the end of WWII, Austrian (and German) society emerged from a decade of indoctrination. Many people spent their whole adult life learning that other human beings, Jews, gypsies, handicapped people, are not equal to but worse than the lowest animal. That it did not matter to rob, rape, torture, and kill them. That their dead bodies can be industrialized and parts of their body used as commodity.
The decision that a law needs to be implemented to prevent such an idiology from ever rising again, and that every attempt to reestablish it should be punished by law, was at that time a rational decision. That the law still exists is another matter, but I think US citizens know well how long laws sometimes take to fade away, even if there is no rational cause for them to exist anymore.

Second, the reason why I, and I assume LST as well, reacted in that way, was because the SS was one of the major organziations in the Third Reich actively governing and supporting the mass extinction of the poor "animals" mentioned above. The SS consisted, to a high percentage, of the lowest scum imaginable. It attracted exactly those people which were too weak to stand up against oppression, at the same time only feeling strong in a group, happily accepting the suffering of others for their own safety and happiness, actively humiliating and torturing poor souls who were either 'stupid' enough to think different or had the bad luck of a different skin color, and always being proud of just doing what they were ordered to.

When somebody uses the ID of an SS unit, and its 'Leitmotif', in a way that suggests either pride or admiration, I find this...well...irritating (in an attempt to remain as polite as LST was).

Third, I think the central point of LSTs post has been missed completely because of an unimportant mention of the above cited law, which obviously drew the attention of the Free Speech Avengers. Just a small comment in this regard: I don´t give a fucking (beeeep) rat´s ass (beeeeep) about a law. I don´t need any fucking (beeeeeeep) law to tell me what I personally have find revolting and what not. Strange, when I type that beeep sound in parenthesis, I immediately think of a specific country where many of the verocious defenders of free speech originate from, can you guess which one?

And finally: If somebody created an account using a picture of one of the WTC terrorists as avatar and used a sig line like "We die for Allah", he would, absolutely justified, leave this forum with his pants on fire. No free speech crap, thanksgoodbye.

LST mentioned the law because it exists, but thats a sideshow. He posted because he found something revolting. As do I. Thats the central point. Noone cares about that fucking (beeeeeeeeeep) law.


Hope that clearifies things a bit. [:)]

Banality? How's this then. Any society that is so afraid of itself, and what someone might say in the interest of security is a society that's made to be ruled. It must be, as it demands it. But that's ok. You get the kind of government you want , and deserve. Frankly it's no skin off my butt. I saw the quote as simply a remark of historical significance , but then again I'm not Austrian, German or in any way European. My ancestors surrendered any claim to that nearly 400 years ago. But if it bothers you , here's what an adult does. 1st they contact the individual privately. Investigate the matter , then if he still doesn't resolve the issue to your satisfaction , ask him to remove it, and then ask the moderator to investigate. We are very fortunate to have an extremely diligent and dutiful one. If he doesn't resolve the matter to your satisfaction , then you can "green button" the offender, or make the adult choice not to look at his posts.

And while I very much value your opinion on the game , I'm not going to wait up nights waiting for you to pontificate on social, legal or moral matters. Thanks but you can keep your bleeps. [:D][:D][:D]

[usersatch]

Jesus Christ...for you dull-headed folks, posting DR runes was/is not a political statement from me, anymore than it is to have an avatar of the Rising Sun (who were known for a few war crimes) or any other specific Axis unit, country, or piece of equipment that may or may not have been involved in soemthing objectionable. It was, however, a statement of that unit's prowess on the battlefield.

Now that someone pointed out that they could get in legal trouble for viewing my message in another country, I will remove it.

For those whose lady parts are in pain over it, pound sand.

EOM

[Feltan]

Oh, well isn't this interesting.

I am not offended by the guy with the SS symbol, and my feelings aren't hurt by the objections to it either. Culturally, I thing the American contingent on the forums is on a complete tangent. Our experiences are just different.

- I spent a lot of time as tot with my German grandparents, and spoke German before I spoke English. At the time (early 60's) that wasn't an unusual experience.
- As a kid, I heard my Dad talk of Nazi fighter pilots with a great deal of grudging respect. "But Dad," I would say, "you guys won. You shot most of them down. What do those guys have to say about you?" In the end, he decided that he really didn't care. The war was over, but growing up it was never far from thought or discussions.
- As a kid, we had an old, mean and cranky teacher. Her name, like mine, has German roots. Behind her back we would goose step and give Heil Hitler salutes out of her field of vision. I ended up getting busted doing it. My Dad thought it was funny, but I still got whooped for getting in trouble.
- As a teen, I remember a kid passing out at a party from too much booze. Someone drew a swastika on his forehead with a magic marker. He probably used an entire bottle of Windex and a couple of green scrubbing pads; his forehead was raw at school the next week, and we all thought that it was a hoot.

The only time I ever recall people getting "serious" about Nazi symbols growing up is when a mailbox of a holocaust survivor got a swastika painted on it. That made the local news. However, it turned out it had to do with their teenage daughter having a go with a couple of the best friends of her so-called boyfriend -- the culprits thought she was acting like a "Nazi slut," and had no idea that there would be linkage to the holocaust. They had no idea the family was Jewish -- but had a Germanic surname that evoked the "Nazi slut" epithet.

I suppose I can see why some people would object to the symbols and slogans. The Nazi's tried to kill my father, and did kill one of his relatives, and one of my Mom's brothers too -- perhaps there things should bother me, but they just don't. Different culture, different experiences and no lingering sense of national guilt. I haven't been educated or indoctrinated to rebel at the sight of them. And, today, those people that actually embrace this sort of thing are self-evident kooks anyway.

Regards,
Feltan

[LargeSlowTarget]

LoBaron said it better than I did.

usersatch, glad to learn this was not a political statement and thanks that you have removed the items.

The 2. SS Panzer Division is regarded as the most "succesful" German division in terms of enemy tanks and vehicles etc. destroyed.

But that unit's "prowess on the battlefield" cannot be separated from the motivation and ideology behind it, so such statements which are glorifying remain objectionable.

Btw, I can see little "prowess" and glory in the cold-blooded murder of defenseless civilians by units of the 2. SS Panzer Division at Tulle and Oradour-sur-Glane in France - and countless other atrocities that went mostly unrecorded on the Eastern Front...

Sorry, but my parents and the German educational system have done a good job to "vaccinate" me - call it paranoia if you want.

'nuff said.

[Big B]

That's a BIG +1

ORIGINAL: Feltan

I had a P-38 (can opener) on my dog tag chain for years. One of the invaluable tools of the old line. The MRE's of today just destroy the romance.

No more C-rations,

or Jeeps,

or M1911 .45 side arms.

The world has gone to hell!

Regards,
Feltan

[guytipton41]

ORIGINAL: Big B

That's a BIG +1

ORIGINAL: Feltan

I had a P-38 (can opener) on my dog tag chain for years. One of the invaluable tools of the old line. The MRE's of today just destroy the romance.

No more C-rations,

or Jeeps,

or M1911 .45 side arms.

The world has gone to hell!

Regards,
Feltan

OMG,

If you have eaten C-rats more than once or twice then you wouldn't mourn them. MREs (esp the light brown bags) are not bad at all. You can eat them for a month at a time no problem. Don't miss C-rats at all.

Cheers
Guy

Ps. And you don't need a P-38 to open them, not that that stopped most folks from carrying one.

[Feltan]

ORIGINAL: guytipton41

ORIGINAL: Big B

That's a BIG +1

ORIGINAL: Feltan

I had a P-38 (can opener) on my dog tag chain for years. One of the invaluable tools of the old line. The MRE's of today just destroy the romance.

No more C-rations,

or Jeeps,

or M1911 .45 side arms.

The world has gone to hell!

Regards,
Feltan

OMG,

If you have eaten C-rats more than once or twice then you wouldn't mourn them. MREs (esp the light brown bags) are not bad at all. You can eat them for a month at a time no problem. Don't miss C-rats at all.

Cheers
Guy

Ps. And you don't need a P-38 to open them, not that that stopped most folks from carrying one.

You, sir, are a heretic.

You have obviously never shaved out of a steel pot on a cold German morning, and then dined on Beef Patties (a.k.a. Sliced Elephant Dick) warmed on the manifold of a running jeep for breakfast.

All that new sensitivity training has lead you to believe that Dehydrated Pork Patties are what soldiers should eat. Nonsense! You can't discuss the truth of the matter because you've been immersed in a culture of don't-ask-don't-tell.

Load six C-rat cans of Pound Cake behind a 105mm blank and you have a field expedient grape shot load. Try that with dehydrated fruit bars!

HA! So there!

Regards,
Feltan

[Big B]

Oh yeah! [:D]
...and - you can cook out of a steel pot too - try that with kevlar [;)]

ORIGINAL: Feltan

ORIGINAL: guytipton41

ORIGINAL: Big B

That's a BIG +1

OMG,

If you have eaten C-rats more than once or twice then you wouldn't mourn them. MREs (esp the light brown bags) are not bad at all. You can eat them for a month at a time no problem. Don't miss C-rats at all.

Cheers
Guy

Ps. And you don't need a P-38 to open them, not that that stopped most folks from carrying one.

You, sir, are a heretic.

You have obviously never shaved out of a steel pot on a cold German morning, and then dined on Beef Patties (a.k.a. Sliced Elephant Dick) warmed on the manifold of a running jeep for breakfast.

All that new sensitivity training has lead you to believe that Dehydrated Pork Patties are what soldiers should eat. Nonsense! You can't discuss the truth of the matter because you've been immersed in a culture of don't-ask-don't-tell.

Load six C-rat cans of Pound Cake behind a 105mm blank and you have a field expedient grape shot load. Try that with dehydrated fruit bars!

HA! So there!

Regards,
Feltan

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: Feltan
Load six C-rat cans of Pound Cake behind a 105mm blank and you have a field expedient grape shot load. Try that with dehydrated fruit bars!

Regards,
Feltan

The pound cake wasn't all that bad. We did shoot most of the fruitcake we got, though. Sometimes, we'd spice it up with some M-3 meatloaf.

You really do need to load it before the propellant. Otherwise, the poor, dumb, gunbunny who has to clean the obturator will not think kindly of you [:D]

Any else of you out there who remember smoking Chesterfields, and Old Golds, while the REMFs got the Luckys, Marlboros, and Winstons? I had a period where I was smoking Kools. Had to be something to do with what was in the Rats.

Oh, my goodness, memory is an incredible thing. The older you get, the sharper the memory. Transpose that. Hootz gazooties! The mind is a wonderful thing to waste. Ciao, JWE

[ed] think I still got an old p-38 in the kitchen drawer. I like to pull it out at parties and hand it to my FBI buddies and watch them go ... wha .. waitaminit .. whasis .. hey John, whatda .. [;)]

[rsallen64]

Steel pots are also good for taking whore baths in if you haven't had a real shower in days and you can't stand your own funk anymore. Can't do that with Kevlar. MREs do taste better, but don't expect to be like a bear and go in the woods for days on end afterwards. [:D]

[Feltan]

ORIGINAL: Symon


Any else of you out there who remember smoking Chesterfields, and Old Golds, while the REMFs got the Luckys, Marlboros, and Winstons? I had a period where I was smoking Kools. Had to be something to do with what was in the Rats.

I suppose this will date me exactly, but some of the first C-rats I saw had smokes in them but that went away quick. And, then several years later I was deployed in the field OCONUS when the first MRE's were issued. I don't recall the details exactly, but we may have been the first tactical deployment of MRE's.

I do know, for a grim fact, that while we had heard about MRE's they got issues sans any instructions or knowledge about them. To illuminate rsallen64's point -- none of us took a crap for almost two weeks after eating MRE's the first time since we had no concept of hydrating them and munched on the contents like they were candy bars. That might sound funny -- unless you had to endure the remedy.

Regards,
Feltan

[guytipton41]

ORIGINAL: Feltan

ORIGINAL: Symon


Any else of you out there who remember smoking Chesterfields, and Old Golds, while the REMFs got the Luckys, Marlboros, and Winstons? I had a period where I was smoking Kools. Had to be something to do with what was in the Rats.

I suppose this will date me exactly, but some of the first C-rats I saw had smokes in them but that went away quick. And, then several years later I was deployed in the field OCONUS when the first MRE's were issued. I don't recall the details exactly, but we may have been the first tactical deployment of MRE's.

I do know, for a grim fact, that while we had heard about MRE's they got issues sans any instructions or knowledge about them. To illuminate rsallen64's point -- none of us took a crap for almost two weeks after eating MRE's the first time since we had no concept of hydrating them and munched on the contents like they were candy bars. That might sound funny -- unless you had to endure the remedy.

Regards,
Feltan

Well.....

The constipation thing with MREs is a caution. After awhile you know which combination of inputs provided the right output.

As a young lad in the Boy Scouts we would get C-Rats every once in a while. On a couple of memorable occasions they had smokes in the them. Us older boys (squad leaders and such) would go around and confiscate them and then after the smalls had hit the rack we sat around the campfire smoking. <cough cough> I wonder if it was nearly as good as I remember.

Cheers
Guy