The Great Patriotic War (loki100 vs SigUp) ... SigUp welcome to read

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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loki100
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RE: 9 – 15 October: 'Impregnable, my Fortresss?' (turn 17)

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: juret

Good aar. Will be more fun following the maps when u go on the offensive in the winter.

yeah, I agree. It'll be nice to reach a phase in the game where I am the one setting out where the action is, as opposed to reacting.

I've just got turn 18 back and its mud .......... wonderful lots of mud [;)]

So since that means I plan to use the next turn as well for a major juggle to hold key things (Tula, Kaluga) in the snow turns and prepare for the winter offensive, I won't bore everyone with an interim update that says very little. I'll conflate the rest of October into a single end of month turn to set things up for the winter turns.
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RE: 9 – 15 October: 'Impregnable, my Fortresss?' (turn 17)

Post by jwolf »

ORIGINAL: loki100

I'll conflate the rest of October into a single end of month turn to set things up for the winter turns.

That will be fine with your readers, I am sure. The mud turns will give you some much needed rest on the front, but the Germans do get a chance to relieve some exhausted units as well. They can hit pretty hard in November. I was surprised in my Soviet game against the AI when in November the Germans cracked some of my positions that I thought I could hold. But the tide quickly turned in December.

Of course (with random weather) there is the possibility of a snow turn amidst the mud. Fun times. ;)
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RE: 9 – 15 October: 'Impregnable, my Fortresss?' (turn 17)

Post by gingerbread »

The weather diece has no memory, you can get not-mud in turn 19...
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RE: 9 – 15 October: 'Impregnable, my Fortresss?' (turn 17)

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

The weather diece has no memory, you can get not-mud in turn 19...

oh damn ...

actually this has inspired me to go and read the manual .. (as ever read the instructions only as a last resort) and its clear I'd completely inverted the rules. There is no guarantee of bad weather (at least in the west) just a limit to it.

on the other hand in my AI game, I've just seen solid mud in the Moscow sector from April to mid-June (maybe 1 turn of clear), so it seems you can get some pretty extreme outcomes - which makes sense in sampling with replication routines.
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RE: 9 – 15 October: 'Impregnable, my Fortresss?' (turn 17)

Post by Stuyvesant »

Things still look scary to me. Expect me to resurface from my security blanket once the tide turns (or once the Germans march the last Soviet POWs into captivity). ;)

Seriously, you seem to have a daunting task. Reading the comments from others, there seems to be a natural rhythm to the game, where the Soviets gain (at least a temporary) advantage during the winter of 41-42, after which the Germans take it back, after which things continue to ebb and flow (and eventually the Russians gain the upper hand and march on Berlin). They clearly know what they are talking about, so I trust their judgment, but not having seen these rhythms in action myself, it's hard to emotionally believe that you can dislodge the Germans and eventually recover.

Should be fun to watch either way.
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RE: 9 – 15 October: 'Impregnable, my Fortresss?' (turn 17)

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Stuyvesant

Things still look scary to me. Expect me to resurface from my security blanket once the tide turns (or once the Germans march the last Soviet POWs into captivity). ;)

Seriously, you seem to have a daunting task. Reading the comments from others, there seems to be a natural rhythm to the game, where the Soviets gain (at least a temporary) advantage during the winter of 41-42, after which the Germans take it back, after which things continue to ebb and flow (and eventually the Russians gain the upper hand and march on Berlin). They clearly know what they are talking about, so I trust their judgment, but not having seen these rhythms in action myself, it's hard to emotionally believe that you can dislodge the Germans and eventually recover.

Should be fun to watch either way.

scary to me too. One problem with the game design is there are a lot of 'rich get richer' mechanisms. Morale is a good eg, you win battles and your morale goes up, higher morale means you win more battles etc. Equally far too much of the loss routine in combat is triggered by retreat, so the winner (usually the attacker) takes too light losses. Both mean the friction of the real war is missing (for both sides).

The first winter rule is a bit of an artificial way to build in at least one rebound for the Soviets. It used to be grossly overstated, it now creates the platform for a short recovery and the chance to hand out some damage.

I need to get space, esp at Moscow. 1942 will be scary, but the Germans are usually at the limits of their manpower, so the art is to keep an army in the field and cost them dear. Would be more optimistic if the overall size of the 2 armies wasn't so equal at the moment.
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16 – 30 October: Behind me, dips Eternity (T17-18)

Post by loki100 »

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(For the Motherland)


The last two weeks of October saw the clear weather finally break. Both armies faced the problems brought by the sustained autumn rains and effectively all major combat operations ceased. However, the Axis armies seemed to suffer more, losing 120 AFVs, 33 aircraft and 49,000 men compared to Soviet losses of only a few tanks, 150 aircraft and 51,000 men.

The partisan war continued with a major strike against the German rail lines supply AGN

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In the air, the Soviets took the opportunity to rest and refit key squadrons and to avoid attritional combat with the Luftwaffe [1].

On both land and in the air, Soviet planning was trying to balance two needs. First, it was assumed the Germans would make one last attempt to capture Moscow before winter set in. Second, there was a need to build up the capacity for a sustained Soviet offensive. At the least this had to relieve the pressure at Moscow and retake some of the major cities of the eastern Ukraine.

However, in the midst of these complex demands on the Stavka's staff, Stalin got drunk one night [2]

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The challenge was not just the operational deployment of the Red Army. Behind the lines, Soviet industry was operating at reduced capacity and failing to meet the demands of rebuilding the Red Army.

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In particular, armaments were in short supply. The lull in fighting had allowed a number of divisions to be pulled out the line to rest and reinforce, but the lack of artillery was a major problem. Few rifle divisions had more than 100 guns and Army level assets were equally diminished.

Despite the need to hold the current frontline, Stavka was slowly creating a reserve. The elite Siberian divisions were mostly pulled into reserve to form the core of the planned counter-offensive.

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Elsewhere, the mobile formations were pulled into reserve and reallocated. Bryansk Front in particular gained 50 Army from the N Caucasus and 34 Army from Western Front. This gave it 3 armies largely consisting of cavalry and tank units (34, 43 and 50A). Around Voronezh a second mobile group was being gathered consisting of 6A (SW Front) and 51A (Southern Front). Equally, reinforcements were being allocated to SW Front in order to protect Voronezh and create the capacity for a later counteroffensive.

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In part due to the rains, but also the depth of Soviet defences around Moscow, October had seen little movement in the front lines. In effect, the long front split into two sections.

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In front of Moscow, Kalinin Front had yielded only 20 kms and its formations, together with the Moscow District had dug multiple defences guarding the city. To the north, NW Front had held the line of the Tveritsa and 55 Army had regained the west bank of the Moskva-Volga canal. Critically here, the bulk of the German armoured and motorised formations were locked into the front lines.

To the south of Moscow, Western Front had managed to regain some ground west of Tula and was well dug in along the Oka. To its immediate south, Leningrad and parts of Bryansk Front held the southerly approach to Tula. Here the German armour was in reserve and it was assumed they would strike at Tula-Kaluga. Here Soviet defensive tactics had shifted, the front lines were only lightly held but a strong secondary line had been set up some 15-20 kms to the rear. The primary goal was to avoid losing any more formations in encirclements.

The three Ukrainian Fronts were also organised to minimise the risk of encirclement while seeking to prevent any German attempts to cross the Don.

[1] – all the high morale, Yak 1, Pe 2, Il 2 squadron are resting. Around Moscow, there are a lot of Migs and Laggs, with the bulk of the VVS now in the south (hoping to catch the Luftwaffe off guard)
[2] Later scrutiny of the Central Committee records indicated that at much the same time as he had this cartoon drawn, him,

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Voroshilov and Molotov found the key to the special Vodka stocks being kept for the triumpal entry of the Red Army into Berlin.

The text reads 'long live the gunners of the Red Army'. The myth of Stalin being at the front was a regular feature of Soviet propaganda and works on the Great Patriotic War in the period 1945-53.

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RE: 16 – 30 October: Behind me, dips Eternity (T17-18)

Post by loki100 »

sorry managed a double post - can't see how to delete
Gabriel B.
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RE: 16 – 30 October: Behind me, dips Eternity (T17-18)

Post by Gabriel B. »

You have very good comanders at front level , but being overloaded does not defeat the pourpose ?

Gennerally I make sure armies get the best leaders, and use whatever front leader I get for free.

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Turn 20

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

You have very good comanders at front level , but being overloaded does not defeat the pourpose ?

Gennerally I make sure armies get the best leaders, and use whatever front leader I get for free.


Its one of a number of things that I am slowly feeling my way about. My instinct is that I'm better with the better commanders at the Front level and accept a small overload. Most of the current problems will be solved when the N Cauc front is fully available and the Volkhov Front activates.

Just had the next turn back and its another mud turn. I guess that saves Moscow for 1941, since all I've done is mostly juggle formations around and commmit the VVS to dropping masses of supply to my partisans, I think I can sum up all that matters in one image:

Image

I guess the armament position won't improve now till the bulk of my losses have returned to the map. At least I can improve the average manpower per division back up to around 10,000 so that will help. Partisans are still enthusiastically blowing up the German rail net.

I've started a secondary round of factory evacuations. Places along the Don that could be threatened in November are now mostly emptied as is the bulk of the Stalingrad factories. My suspicion is I'll have to pull them out next summer in any case, so may as well do it now.


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Gabriel B.
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RE: Turn 20

Post by Gabriel B. »

ORIGINAL: loki100
ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

You have very good comanders at front level , but being overloaded does not defeat the pourpose ?

Gennerally I make sure armies get the best leaders, and use whatever front leader I get for free.


Its one of a number of things that I am slowly feeling my way about. My instinct is that I'm better with the better commanders at the Front level and accept a small overload. Most of the current problems will be solved when the N Cauc front is fully available and the Volkhov Front activates.


If the front hq is 6 hexes from the combat unit involved ,your leader ( Meretskov) has a 27 % chance to cover the admin failings of
his subordinates without any overloading , being overloaded with 10 points reduces that to 18%.

the bigest problem for red army is the initiative rating , as such a leader like Vatutin (7) should not be overloaded , right now the chance to make the check is 12 % instead of 31%. (assuming he front hq is 6 hexes from the combat unit involved ).



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RE: Turn 20

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.


If the front hq is 6 hexes from the combat unit involved ,your leader ( Meretskov) has a 27 % chance to cover the admin failings of
his subordinates without any overloading , being overloaded with 10 points reduces that to 18%.

the bigest problem for red army is the initiative rating , as such a leader like Vatutin (7) should not be overloaded , right now the chance to make the check is 12 % instead of 31%. (assuming he front hq is 6 hexes from the combat unit involved ).

I must admit quite a few of my fronts are further back so as to avoid deaths of key commanders. Next turn it looks better as I have the Caucasus MD as a full Front, with the Volkhov Front in late November, I should be down to small overloads for the winter offensive.
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8 – 14 November: 'Nor wheeled on roads of snow' (turn 21)

Post by loki100 »

The second week of November saw further shifts of weather. The rain that had stalled all operations at Moscow now set off a thaw in the western regions of the USSR. However, the Moscow sector saw the first sustained snowfalls of the winter.

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The mud behind the German lines disrupted any axis attempts to curb the growing partisan bands. The result was rails were blown south of Vilnius, on the Luga (where the partisans seemed to be in complete control) and north of Odessa.

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Stavka continued to allocate substantial amounts of manpower and supplies to bolster the war behind the German lines. With roads blocked by mud and vehicles breaking down in the cold, it was hoped that a sustained partisan war could destabilise the entire German supply effort.

However, the arrival of snow and frost meant the German offensive at Moscow was renewed. North of the Moskva river, their progress was measured in miles as Kalinin and Moscow Front formations defended the fortifications constructed in the last 3 weeks.

South of the Moskva, the Germans made more progress to the north of Kaluga.

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Both armies had identified Kaluga as key to the battle for Moscow. Even as 2 German Panzer Corps tried to cut the city off to the north, Stavka ordered Western Front's 3 and 10 Armies over to the offensive south of the Oka.

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Elements of 3 Army in action

In an attempt to overwhelm the Germans on the Kursk-Bryansk sector, the offensive was widened to include the freshly arrived Leningrad Front, elements of Bryansk Front and SW Front. Despite the threat of a large Panzer reserve north of Kursk, Soviet forces struck along a 60-70 km front, driving exposed German infantry formations back.

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[1]
A lesser offensive south of Voronezh relieved the pressure on that city and allowed SW Front to pull 6 Army fully into reserve. Slowly elite Siberian formations, units that had been rebuilt from the disasters of the summer and a substantial moblie reserve was being accumulated south of Moscow.

In an attempt to keep the Germans off balance, the newly designated N Caucasus Front attempted several naval raids. The attempted landing at Mariupol was a disaster but marines were put ashore south of Nikolaev and sought to join up with the local partisan formations in an attempt to cut the German rail line supplying their forces in the Crimea.

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At the same time, the VVS was overhauled and a number of incompetent commanders replaced.

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[2]

In addition the VVS took advantage of the re-organisation to re-equip. A number of bomber regiments shifted from the older SB-2s to the modern Pe-2s and fighter squadrons started to train on the new lend-lease Hurricanes and P-40s.

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[3]

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P40 in testing near Moscow

With the Caucasus Front now designated a combat front and 11 Army transferred from NW Front to the Urals MD, slowly the battered Red Army regained its balance.

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Losses reflected the return of intense combat. 28,000 Axis and 48,000 Soviet soldiers were killed or badly wounded and the Germans lost 112 tanks and the Soviets 417 (as the new tank brigades began to reach the front in substantial numbers). In the air, 56 German and 156 Soviet aircraft were lost.

[1] – oddly I'd now quite like to provoke those Panzers into battle. With one week of November lost, I'm confident of holding Tula and Kaluga unless SigUp heavily commits all his forces. My logic is I have more chance of doing real damage in December if his main reserve is exhausted by having to fight in November ... I may be wrong ...
[2] – I've made use of all the admin points allocated along with N Cauc Front to make a start on sorting out the air OOB
[3] – Soviet accounts report that the P-40 was less than ideal. Soviet fighter design stressed speed and manouverability, the P-40s were relatively slow but better armoured and with more powerful machine guns. The result was the squadrons that used them had to adopt different tactics to those usually used by the VVS. Also the unusual design meant they were often targets for Soviet AA fire.

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RE: 8 – 14 November: 'Nor wheeled on roads of snow' (turn 21)

Post by jwolf »

The mud behind the German lines disrupted any axis attempts to curb the growing partisan bands.

I always hate the mud turns when playing as the Germans for exactly this reason.  No matter how well the partisans are controlled beforehand, they seem to proliferate wildly at the first sign of mud -- just when their damage is most difficult to contain and repair.  But I guess that's good news for you! [:)]

Those are rather high AFV losses, for both sides actually, but especially for you.  Does your production make that up?  I would guess not.
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RE: 8 – 14 November: 'Nor wheeled on roads of snow' (turn 21)

Post by Wuffer »

a good read, Loki (as usual, one might add).
And I don't think it's all lost, assuming that he won't run away during blizzard (hey, that's being as realistic as panzers in Vladivostok) you could hit the very same victims again and again; seeing CVs of 4 and 5 and a trashed Gebirgsjaeger before winter is great. [8D]
And yeah, this is simply your fight for survival.
As it should be.
keep on, happy hunting
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RE: 8 – 14 November: 'Nor wheeled on roads of snow' (turn 21)

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jwolf
The mud behind the German lines disrupted any axis attempts to curb the growing partisan bands.

I always hate the mud turns when playing as the Germans for exactly this reason. No matter how well the partisans are controlled beforehand, they seem to proliferate wildly at the first sign of mud -- just when their damage is most difficult to contain and repair. But I guess that's good news for you! [:)]

Those are rather high AFV losses, for both sides actually, but especially for you. Does your production make that up? I would guess not.

at the moment, I'm ok for tanks. About 10-15% of the tank brigades have no tanks but most of the rest have 30 or so (depends on how I've used the refit options) and most are around 50 morale. So even if just used for reserve activation, they will be very useful in the next phase. Its artillery I'm struggling for, although I am adding about 1300 per turn (net) I'm still at rock bottom for armaments.

I've scaled back the partisan resupply work as of now (partly to rest the Il-4s), but plan a massive surge in time for the winter offensive. If I get really lucky, I may just manage to put a significant sector out of supply or really hinder SigUp's ability to respond if I shift angle of attack.
ORIGINAL: Wuffer

a good read, Loki (as usual, one might add).
And I don't think it's all lost, assuming that he won't run away during blizzard (hey, that's being as realistic as panzers in Vladivostok) you could hit the very same victims again and again; seeing CVs of 4 and 5 and a trashed Gebirgsjaeger before winter is great. [8D]
And yeah, this is simply your fight for survival.
As it should be.
keep on, happy hunting

thank you.

And to pick up on your other comment, one reason I finally gave up on HOI3 was it was clear it was never going to be a challenge, unless you kept on stepping in to help the AI. Unfortunately Paradox crafted a complex, easy to win game.

Do much prefer MP and the gain of PBEM is you can both play at your leisure.

This does feel suitably grim, and I keep on reading STEF78's AAR and having a panic.

There is no sign of the Wehrmacht making a run for Poland – in truth with the mild blizzard they should be able to hold onto some key terrain. I'm just hoping that lots of well rested cavalry will prove to be very disruptive, especially allied to my best infantry divisions all pulled into a few designated armies ...
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15 – 21 November 1941: 'Unto the East Again' (turn 22)

Post by loki100 »

As November advanced, Stavka continued to face its twin challenge of limiting any German gains while building up a reserve for the planned offensive. Equally it faced the problem of ensuring the main axis of the counterattack would do as much damage as possible.

Across much of the front, only very limited fighting took place but where the two sides clashed a combination of Soviet determination to give no more ground and German desire to secure their objectives meant it was vicious. By the end of the week, the Axis forces had lost 22,000 men and the Soviets 38,000. German tank losses remained high with 102 German tanks destroyed for 154 Soviet. In the air, the VVS' new hit and run tactics proved effective with only 73 planes lost for 54 Germans.

The main fighting was around Kaluga where, to the Soviet's surprise the city fell to an early attack as a concentrated German blow overwhelmed the substantial fortifications that had been built up since early October.

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(elements of 4 Army in action at Kaluga)

To the south, Stavka suspended the offensive as it was clear the Germans had committed at least one of their Panzer Groups to shore up their front. A final Panzer Group was identified still in reserve north of Kursk.

To the rear, partisan raids continued with their main rail in the Ukraine blown west of Kiev and the Vitebsk partisan group back in action hitting the supply lines to Army Group Centre.

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(Partisan sabotage squad north of Vyazma)

Overall, the Red Army was slowly building up its strength. Artillery remained in short supply but over 5 million were now under arms and a further 300,000 in reserve. The bulk were still deployed around Moscow where Kalinin, Western, Moscow and Leningrad Fronts had 1.6 million men, 630 tanks and 1200 planes. In the northern part of the Ukraine, Bryansk and SW Fronts had some 800,000 men, 750 tanks and 750 planes.

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The bulk of the front remained static but steadily more formations were pulled into reserve and fresh rifle divisions relieved some units that had been in action constantly since June.

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Planning for the winter offensive was well advanced. Almost every major front had at least one army in reserve. The question was where to launch the main attack.

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To the north of Moscow, the German lines facing NW Front were anchored on the cities of Torzhok and Kalinin and the bulk of one Panzer Group was deployed in the salient NW of Moscow.

West of Moscow was another Panzer Group and the best infantry in the German army. However, the latter had been involved in the attritional battles of the past 6 weeks but represented a formidable foe for Kalinin Front.

To the south, Western Front had inflicted heavy losses on the German infantry but again their defensive lines had been reinforced by the bulk of a Panzer Group.

South of Voronezh, the strung out formations of Southern and Caucasus Front faced equally stretched German and Rumanian units. However, these formations lacked mobile units and faced the challenge of crossing the Don. The river had stalled the final German offensives but presented a barrier in turn to any Soviet counterattack.

This analysis left one logical sector where the Germans did not have the advantage of a river line or large cities. A Soviet offensive in the Tula-Voronezh sector led by Bryansk and Leningrad Fronts seemed to offer the greatest opportunities. A threat to the rear of Axis forces further south would probably allow limited gains in that sector.

Equally a determined push towards Bryansk might help disrupt the German defenses around Moscow. The problem was this plan was probably obvious to both sides and a powerful Panzer group was in reserve north of Kursk. The realistic alternative was to use Leningrad Front as a decoy and rather than commit it south of Moscow redeploy it to the north. That would leave the southern hook heavily dependent on cavalry formations but might allow a reduction of the German salient to the north of Moscow.


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swkuh
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RE: 15 – 21 November 1941: 'Unto the East Again' (turn 22)

Post by swkuh »

KUDOS for the excellent AAR, analysis, play, and commentary the best. Thanks.
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RE: 15 – 21 November 1941: 'Unto the East Again' (turn 22)

Post by jwolf »

Thanks, Loki, for another great chapter of your story.  IMHO you would do well to get those winter gains under the normal blizzard rules, let alone the milder version you have here.  But it will be interesting to see.

The fall of Kaluga is a bitter blow as you had fought so hard to keep it (equally SigUp fought so hard to take it!)  Kalinin and Kaluga really seem to anchor the Moscow front.  If SigUp can hold those during the winter, then he would be set up in '42 for a good attack on Moscow itself.  Good luck with the winter!
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RE: 15 – 21 November 1941: 'Unto the East Again' (turn 22)

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: rrbill

KUDOS for the excellent AAR, analysis, play, and commentary the best. Thanks.

thank you, glad its useful and interest
ORIGINAL: jwolf

Thanks, Loki, for another great chapter of your story. IMHO you would do well to get those winter gains under the normal blizzard rules, let alone the milder version you have here. But it will be interesting to see.

The fall of Kaluga is a bitter blow as you had fought so hard to keep it (equally SigUp fought so hard to take it!) Kalinin and Kaluga really seem to anchor the Moscow front. If SigUp can hold those during the winter, then he would be set up in '42 for a good attack on Moscow itself. Good luck with the winter!

Aye, I think you can regard that line as Stalin's fantasies while lurking deep beneath the Kremlin. In reality I'll settle for shaking SigUp loose of his current lines to the south of Moscow.

My fear is he now has all the fortresses that protect Mosow (Kalinin, Rzhev, Vyazma and Kaluga), that will shore up his winter lines, esp as it is now feasible for the Germans to counterattack in January and leave him well placed to attack Moscow next year.

Kaluga proved that if he wants something badly enough, he can take it – I suspect he has an infantry corps or two optimised for that sort of assault work. I have a belt of forts between the front and Moscow but its not impregnable, and I have to guard against a hook from north or south.

Despite of course believing that the winter offensive will end with the Red Army in Berlin, I'm actually evacuating all the Moscow factories. This is a good time to do it as I have a fair bit of spare rail capacity and they should be up and running again by next summer.
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