Why strafing is so useless ?

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ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

I found out that it's due to beta patch[:(]

Comparing beta and stock game result, flak is far more effective in beta than stock.

Using 36 Ki45a and 36 ki45b, with mixed pilots (80 to 45) in 1942.

In beta patch, I lost 50 from flak and 20 from ops loss in 2 week, destroying 13 planes on the ground on about 58(8 catalina, 28 P39, 16P40E, 6 beaufort).

In stock, I lost 28 from flak and 14 from ops loss in 2 week, destroying 29 planes on the ground.

I didn't try to get the best result, I just leave them in airfield attack(100ft) and spam next turn but I show what I wanted to see.
In stock, these result are balanced and seems good but in beta, it's really disappointing.

From the beta notes :
26/04/2013: 1123j - Flak calculation incorrect for land units

I think I should ask michaelm about this perhaps he change it for a good reason [&:]

No, you are wrong. That build change did not alter how flak operates.

Alfred

Actually flak is much stronger in the beta. It may not have changed with that build, but I'm not really adept enough at translating michaelm's wonderfully cryptic notes to know where it might have actually been altered. [:)]

This test above is probably not enough of a sample to prove the point, but it's generally known among those who've been playing the betas that flak is more effective now than in the official patch.

This is a good thing though. It's brought it closer to the Babes model of flak, and it's effectiveness is supported by the evidence of its use in the war.

Strafing doesn't and won't work very well in this game, period. Flak is working better for both sides, though.

[Feltan]

One point of clarification in this discussion.

IIRC, strafing is the only way to attack PT boats and Barges. Aircraft at 100 feet on naval attack will in fact work well on these targets.

Regards,
Feltan

[Yaab]

I think there are several kinds of strafing attacks:

-aircaft with machine guns strafing
-aircraft with machine guns/ cannons strafing
-aircraft with machine guns/cannons/bombs strafing

against

LCU in rest/movement/combat mode
LCU in combat mode+forts

Now if you fly Oscars/Nates against a Chinese LCU which sits in a +2 terrain hex and has +2 forts and has zero AA weapons, what can you expect?

I think strafing should really be employed against LCUs in move mode which have few AA weapons. Such attack should revert LCUs to combat mode and disable their support/motorized support squads. Even Nates and Oscars should be effective in such engagements.

[Gaspote]

From what I imagine, an airfield attack at 100 feet, mean your plane aren't suppose to be engage by big guns so only 40mm less guns will shot. If your plane are intercept by CAP while in airfield attack set a 100feet, they are intercepted at 100feet. I don't think all the flak of the hex shot when plane fly at 100 feet. Even during the attack, they are a lot of guns not present because they aren't at this point at this moment protecting other area. Even if it's this case, the planes won't attack seeing so much flaks.

To resume, if there are a few flak, it won't be effective so planes will get a few loss and destroyed a lot of units on the ground.
If there are huge flak concentration, planes won't attack or try another places or abort at all. So more planes will be shot down (without losing half of the squadron) and few units will be hit on the ground or no at all.

It's what I imagine from the result of the official patch.


In beta, it's like if raid is never abort so planes run right in a flak concentration but having a lot of loss, they still it nothing on the ground like if they have aborted.

Alfred : So explain me how result can be so different ? It's not 5 planes differents, in beta, I got 2 times the loss of the stock. Just try by yourself.

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ORIGINAL: Gaspote

From what I imagine, an airfield attack at 100 feet, mean your plane aren't suppose to be engage by big guns so only 40mm less guns will shot. If your plane are intercept by CAP while in airfield attack set a 100feet, they are intercepted at 100feet. I don't think all the flak of the hex shot when plane fly at 100 feet. Even during the attack, they are a lot of guns not present because they aren't at this point at this moment protecting other area. Even if it's this case, the planes won't attack seeing so much flaks.

To resume, if there are a few flak, it won't be effective so planes will get a few loss and destroyed a lot of units on the ground.
If there are huge flak concentration, planes won't attack or try another places or abort at all. So more planes will be shot down (without losing half of the squadron) and few units will be hit on the ground or no at all.

It's what I imagine from the result of the official patch.


In beta, it's like if raid is never abort so planes run right in a flak concentration but having a lot of loss, they still it nothing on the ground like if they have aborted.

Alfred : So explain me how result can be so different ? It's not 5 planes differents, in beta, I got 2 times the loss of the stock. Just try by yourself.

A. Better flak is good. As stated above.

B. Just don't expect to be able to fly into a wall of AA at 100ft and not take a lot of losses. You might think it should work, but it won't. The beta makes it even less of a good idea.

C. If you like less effective flak, play the official patch.

[Gaspote]

ORIGINAL: obvert

A. Better flak is good. As stated above.

Which statements ? People say it's better why ? It the first question of the topic nobody gave me a reason.

B. Just don't expect to be able to fly into a wall of AA at 100ft and not take a lot of losses. You might think it should work, but it won't. The beta makes it even less of a good idea.

I agree, but what do you call a wall of AA ? In 1944-45 it was used by USN and work well assuming you get ships with a lot of AA guns close.
In 1942, over an airfield, they didn't keep so much AA, because they have to protect infantry unit, depots and port. AA is spread over the hex so there are no wall of AA.
In my test, it was something like 90 guns mostly small guns.

Pilots aren't stupid too and won't run in a flak concentration like I said before.

C. If you like less effective flak, play the official patch.

I'm not saying flak is wrong, just strafing is not well model. It's good to keep the bomber high but ruining fighters role isn't nice. It's call a beta patch so I think it's usefull to give my opinion.

[witpqs]

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

A. Better flak is good. As stated above.

Which statements ? People say it's better why ? It the first question of the topic nobody gave me a reason.

The code was changed to make flak more effective, especially over land. Also, in Babes mods (not sure if these changes have been rolled into stock scenarios yet, but they might have been) the flak devices on ships were all recalculated and normalized. That resulted in ship-board flak being much more potent and (seeming) much more realistic.

[Gaspote]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The code was changed to make flak more effective, especially over land.

What let you think it wasn't well model ? I admit flak isn't really effective at high alt in stock but it was not that bad at low level.

Does changing effectiveness affect all altitude so strafing have been indirectly affect ?

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

I'm not saying flak is wrong, just strafing is not well model. It's good to keep the bomber high but ruining fighters role isn't nice. It's call a beta patch so I think it's usefull to give my opinion.

Exactly. For all of the reasons those above have mentioned strafing doesn't work in game as it did in the war. This will not be something that will change. The beta is primarily a one man effort (thank you michaelm!!! [&o]) and from what I've heard there may not be another official patch from it.

You however can mod all kinds of things that you'd like to model.

Ask in the modding forum and you'll get some help to possibly change things more to your liking.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The code was changed to make flak more effective, especially over land.

What let you think it wasn't well model ? I admit flak isn't really effective at high alt in stock but it was not that bad at low level.

Does changing effectiveness affect all altitude so strafing have been indirectly affect ?

IMO, flak over land was trivial and at sea was even less. Now I think it is right, or as close as I can tell.

I don't really know about specific answers to your second question.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Feltan

One point of clarification in this discussion.

IIRC, strafing is the only way to attack PT boats and Barges. Aircraft at 100 feet on naval attack will in fact work well on these targets.

Regards,
Feltan

The problem is that you do not have control over target selection and your planes are just as likely to attack an AKL sitting at a nearby base with a fat CAP traps hovering over it. You have to be careful.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

ORIGINAL: obvert

A. Better flak is good. As stated above.

Which statements ? People say it's better why ? It the first question of the topic nobody gave me a reason.

B. Just don't expect to be able to fly into a wall of AA at 100ft and not take a lot of losses. You might think it should work, but it won't. The beta makes it even less of a good idea.

I agree, but what do you call a wall of AA ? In 1944-45 it was used by USN and work well assuming you get ships with a lot of AA guns close.
In 1942, over an airfield, they didn't keep so much AA, because they have to protect infantry unit, depots and port. AA is spread over the hex so there are no wall of AA.
In my test, it was something like 90 guns mostly small guns.

Pilots aren't stupid too and won't run in a flak concentration like I said before.

C. If you like less effective flak, play the official patch.

I'm not saying flak is wrong, just strafing is not well model. It's good to keep the bomber high but ruining fighters role isn't nice. It's call a beta patch so I think it's usefull to give my opinion.

Opinion yes, but you are a bit late to the party. The move to increase the effectiveness of flak stems from five years of player input on this forum. Flak was totally anemic in the stock version of the original game, making it almost useless to upgrade Allied ship as they never shot much down anyways. As for strafing at 100 feet. It never worked well even before flak was strengthened. You have to understand that you are talking about engine tweaks that are not going to happen and if they did happen then might create a whole new set of unforeseen imbalances. Sorry, I would love to see it work myself and cried about it years ago but have learned to live with the limitations of an otherwise great simulation. To me and most others making flak more deadly was the more important issue, and one that could readily be worked out.

[Mac Linehan]

Gaspote - excellent question.

Gents - very illuminating discussion, I have learned much - thank you for your input.

Alfred - I always appreciate your concise, accurate and informative posts.

I strongly suspect that you have invested considerable time researching before posting; my respect and appreciation to you, Sir.

Cricket Mac

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Gaspote


Alfred : So explain me how result can be so different ? It's not 5 planes differents, in beta, I got 2 times the loss of the stock. Just try by yourself.

If you look at the date of the beta build that had that change and then look in the beta thread in the Tech section at that date and for about two months afterward, you will see what Michael's comment refers to. I think that's what Alfred is saying. The beta change doesn't do what you say it does.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The code was changed to make flak more effective, especially over land. Also, in Babes mods (not sure if these changes have been rolled into stock scenarios yet, but they might have been) the flak devices on ships were all recalculated and normalized. That resulted in ship-board flak being much more potent and (seeming) much more realistic.

The Babes changes to flak and ASW are not in the stock scenarios. But they are available in a separate DL made available by Andy Mac. Lokasenna and I are playing a Scen 2 game with those changes added.

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Encircled

... Would strafing still have an effect on the supply of the unit being strafed?

Yes.

Any attack on a LCU, irrespective of the mode employed and how delivered will raise the subsequent supply consumption. How much depends on die rolls and whether the attacked LCU returns fire.

Alfred

Alfred, do you mean the supply consumption is raised during the air attack or on subsequent turn? I think you mean it is raised during the air attack, because I have never seen a single LCU had its supply upped on subsequent turn, even if the LCU is an AA unit. If its raised during the air attack, then how this effect can be observed by players?

[Alfred]

See the posts from BigJ62 in this thread.
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2527906&mpage=1&key=supply%2Cconsumption&#2528443
 
Participation in combat sees the supply requirement increase.  The actual daily consumption is simply determined as requirement/30.  The feeding occurs at the end of turn housekeeping tasks which occur after combat.
 
Alfred