My battles always end in draw

[KTT]

Hello fellow generals,

I played a single attack mission as Soviets against Germans and it made me post this message. It was a easy mission, I attacked with maybe twenty tanks and the Germans had nothing but infantry. I got the objective flags pretty quickly and wiped out all remaining enemy units. It was turn 10 or something when the game decided to finish the battle. I was given scores and what the...!? It was draw. I had met all the objectives with minor casualties and still I didn't win the battle!
Shortly after that I started The Heroes of Motherland campaign. In the first battle I destroyed 50 German vehicles and lost 10 of my own. Germans got two westernmost objective flags, but at turn 19 their morale was broken and they retreated. My score was a bit over 6000 and the enemy got 2000. It was draw. I just couldn't accept that.
This has happened to me often and it's a little frustrating sometimes...

Now I'm asking you more experienced generals. Do I simply suck at this game or is it a bit too unforgiving?

[Wild Bill]

I can't say about the generated battle, but in Heroes of the Motherland different scenarios have different requirements.

The setup for victory is

1 to 5 or greater, decisive loss
1 to 3 or more, marginal loss
If you get anywhere between 1-3 to 3-1 it is a draw.
3 to 1 or more, a marginal victory
5 to 1 or more, a decisive victory

You, according to your report, KTT, were borderline marginal-draw. 3 to 1 and above should be a marginal.

Decisives in a campaign are not easy to come by. And it is not always poor generalship. The fates play a role also.

Don't give up. If you honestly felt you got a good victory, don't let what the computer tells you convince you differantly.

Wild Bill

------------------
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

[Pave]

Hi

There are at least two major things which also affect how much points you and the enemy get.

One is that even if you get all the objectives, it could be that enemy held some of the "points per turn" flags so long that they managed to get enough points to stop you getting a victory (in terms of points). I remember happening this sometimes for myself. At least Wild Bill has some nasty campaigns where I've experienced this.

The number of vehicles destroyed is not a good measurement either, because there might be a multiplier which increase the cost of the equipment. If you destroy equipment worth of 2000 points and the enemy worth of 1000, but you has a multiplier of 2.0 it means that enemy gets actually 2000 points for the destroyed equipment. I haven't seen these different multipliers been used so often.

At least do not give up yet. One of the key elements to success is to keep your losses low. I've learned this the hard way If you have 20 turns time, you don't have to take the objectives on turn 10 (unless there are "points per turn" hexes).

If you play the Victors campaign (the hard version) you should be very happy to get a draw.

I also noted that actually not doing so well in some of the campaigns, might give you more interesting scenarios in the next rounds. Just be sure to do well enough that you get to the next round.

[This message has been edited by Pave (edited February 25, 2001).]

[Dedas]

Dont you hate when you think you won and the battle ends in a draw...thought so!
This is something, I think, that need some overlooking.

[KTT]

Originally posted by Dedas:
Dont you hate when you think you won and the battle ends in a draw...thought so!
This is something, I think, that need some overlooking.

Yes, I hate when that happens. Of course, usually it happens for a reason. I've played a lousy battle and AI has honestly won. But sometimes the game prioritizes victory hexes over everything. If I've destroyed the entire enemy force but haven't got that last hex in time, I've lost the battle. Maybe it should look more at scores when determing the winner...?

[B52g]

KTT and Dedas:
Remember, you dont always have to take everything to get a decisive victory. Deprive your opponent of chances to inflict casualties by going small. Sometimes I will fight with only a fraction of my forces by using small, heavily armed groups. You can inflict heavy losses on your opponent and then only take some of the objectives. Then your opponent will be forced to try to inflict casualties on you to fight you to a draw. I found it sometimes works against scenerios that are designed to be draws or marginal victories.

The AI will pick on your weakest unit in order to get points. Dont let it do it. Make it fight your toughest unit.

Sometimes you have to weigh the cost of what you will lose versus what you will gain. I will not send my 200+ point tank to go get a victory hex worth 100 points at the end of the game if it is too heavilly defended. You keep your victory hex, I will keep the tank.

But sometimes you must take an objective to win, and there is not a whole lot you can do about it.

[Resisti]

I've questioned myself several times,too,abt "what to do to win this scenario ?" how do I win this Campaign battle ?"
So, either:

1)A fixed formula valid for ALL the battles fought (never mind if a scenario,a generated battle or a campaign battle) exists, and in this case a breakdown should be placed somewhere for people to see (unless it exists and I missed it...)

or

2)each single battle/scenario/campaign battle has its own victory conditions and in this case the author should include them in the text file (unless this exist,too,and i missed it EVERYTIME...)

My personal "as newbie" experience up to now has been most of the times to feel lost,at a given point of the game,on what to do: "did I get a good result up to now and may i hold my positions ? or do have I to run tru a last desperate assault cause i'm actually losing the match ?"

I dont know you people out there what you think abt this,but from my point of view this is something i'd like to see clarified/improved.

------------------
Federico "Resisti" Doveri
If you cannot defeat your enemy,join him.

[Pave]

Resisti

First of all, there is no fixed answer for every battle. Every battle is different and you just have to find the solution yourself (that's the fun anyway or why are you playing this?).

There are usually many ways to win the same battle. When you get more experience, you start to see more easily the best choices. Even in the real life the generals do not know absolute answers in advance how to win a battle. For example you can learn to see how many turns are roughly needed to reach a certain point with these units, without enemy opposition. After that estimate how much enemy resistance would slow you down. Some scenarios have objectives which seem impossible to reach in time (without paras), so I just don't even try to reach them, unless necessary.

I'm been playing SP games since SP2 came out and I think I still learn new things every this and then. SPWAW gives you a lot of new tools for winning the battle (paratroopers and special forces are very handy if you cannot win other ways).

[Alby]

IMHO I think this needs to be looked at....
I just played online game, score was 10627 points for me and 6349 for ooponent...all I got was a draw????
Think I whupped him good but......

[Kharan]

Originally posted by Alby:
IMHO I think this needs to be looked at....
I just played online game, score was 10627 points for me and 6349 for ooponent...all I got was a draw????
Think I whupped him good but......

In human vs human battles you need to have double the points to get a marginal victory.

My advice is just to ignore what it says and look at the points... if you got more, you win, if you got less, you lose.

[B52g]

Some of you guys are like me, I just have to see the words "decisive victory".
And I agree that something needs to be done because of something that Pave said. "For example you can learn to see how many turns are roughly needed to reach a certain point.."
I have been forced to do something that I never used to do, which is figure out the mathematics of the victory hexes vs. the number of turns. The reason for this is that I have noticed that a couple scenerios will be draws or at best a marginal victory if I take no casualties because there are a lot of "points per turn" hexes deep in enemy territory that could not possibly be taken until the game was almost over.
So I have been figuring them out so that I dont waste ten hours playing a scenerio I cant win.

[Alby]

Originally posted by Kharan:
In human vs human battles you need to have double the points to get a marginal victory.

My advice is just to ignore what it says and look at the points... if you got more, you win, if you got less, you lose.

heheh already done!! LOL