winterized units

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Shannon V. OKeets
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RE: winterized units

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

Hogwash. More information is better, particularly when trying to improve your gameplay and when dealing with multiple conflicting bonuses.

There is ample room on the form. Observe.


Image
I've already taken the ground support and naval bombardment numbers off this list. Instead they appear above the unit lists following the words "Defending Units" and "Attacking Units" as +5 Air, +6 Naval [or something similar]. That cuts your list by 4 lines.

But you missed quite a few possibilities:
- Disorganized units
- Territorials (attacker or defender bonus)
- Combat Friction between major powers on the attacking side
- Paradrops
- Armor (attacker or defender bonus)
- HQ Support (attacker or defender bonus)
- Fractional Odds

Here is the code for the 1D10 table and the Design view of the form for the 1D10:

// ****************************************************************************
// ShiftsTotal := ShiftTerrain + ShiftWeather + ShiftHQ + ShiftFractionalOdds.
// ****************************************************************************
// Turning the visibilty off has two benefits: it avoids flickering during
// update and it causes the memo to be positioned at the top when made visible.
// ****************************************************************************
ColShiftsText.Visible := False;
ColShiftsText.Clear;
ColShiftsText.Lines.Add(rsShiftsTotal + SignedIntToStr(ShiftsTotal));
ColShiftsText.Lines.Add(rsShiftsTerrain + SignedIntToStr(ShiftTerrain));
ColShiftsText.Lines.Add(rsShiftsWeather + SignedIntToStr(ShiftWeather));
ColShiftsText.Lines.Add(rsShiftsHQSupport + SignedIntToStr(ShiftHQ));
ColShiftsText.Lines.Add(rsShiftsFractional +
SignedIntToStr(ShiftFractionalOdds));
ColShiftsText.Visible := True;
end;
// ****************************************************************************
// 1D10 DRM:
// DRMTotal := DRMTerrain + DRMDisorganized + DRMParadrop + DRMArmor +
// DRMTerritorials + DRMCombatFriction;
// ****************************************************************************
if DRMTerrain <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMTerrain +
SignedFloatToStr(DRMTerrain, 2));

if DRMWeather <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMWeather +
SignedFloatToStr(DRMWeather, 2));

if DRMDisorganized <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMDisorganized +
SignedFloatToStr(DRMDisorganized));

if DRMTerritorials <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMTerritorials +
SignedFloatToStr(DRMTerritorials));

if DRMCombatFriction <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMCombatFriction +
SignedFloatToStr(DRMCombatFriction));

if DRMParadrop <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMParadrop +
SignedFloatToStr(DRMParadrop, 2));

if (DRMArmorAssault <> 0) or (DRMArmorBlitz <> 0) then
begin
AR := SignedFloatToStr(DRMArmorAssault, 2);
BR := SignedFloatToStr(DRMArmorBlitz, 2);
DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMArmor + Format('%s (%sB)', [AR, BR]));
end;

if DRMHQSupport <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMHQs +
SignedFloatToStr(DRMHQSupport, 2));

if OptRules.FractionalOdds and OptRules.TwoD10LandCRT then
DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMFractionalOdds + SignedIntToStr(DRMFraction));



Image
Attachments
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Steve

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RE: winterized units

Post by joshuamnave »

It wasn't intended to be a complete list and I realized right away that ground support, both air and naval, were actually part of the based odds calculation and not DRM's. I was just trying to show that an itemized DRM was possible. And I wouldn't suggest having an entry for every possible DRM, only those applicable to that combat. I'm not a coder, but I'm pretty good with contextual interpretation and to my untrained eye, it looks like the code you've copied does pretty much that. Of those you listed, "armor" is included on my list, I just called it blitz bonus. And you missed Nationalist Chinese attack penalty :D

I'm sure there are some very extreme cases where the list of applicable DRM's is too long to fit in the box, but that could trigger a summary instead, perhaps with a clickable popup list of modifiers. Or it could always be an optional "click here to review a detailed combat summary", leaving it uncluttered for those who don't need or want to see it. Or the window could have a scroll bar. Or instead of a pop up, it could be a hover over box. All of which could be toggled off as a screen layout setting for those who just don't want it.

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RE: winterized units

Post by joshuamnave »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Even with the form the way it is, I just look at the final odds and hit Roll. Even if there was more details provided, I would never take the time to go through in that much detail. While that may make me a 'bad' player in some eyes, to me it just means I play differently.

That's how I learn a game - not just this one, but pretty much any game. But once I have a general sense for how things work, I get into the details so I can tweak my generalized strategies and tactics. For example, I had forgotten prior to this thread that white print Russian units got a defensive bonus in inclement weather. That's going to have a pretty big impact on how I set up the Russian defenses. If that information had been in the combat summary every winter when I was making my attacks, I would have already made that adjustment. More information more readily available will make me a better player, and in turn, make me enjoy the game more. I get that it's not for everyone, however.
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Shannon V. OKeets
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RE: winterized units

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

To continue on from my previous post, here is the code for the 2D10. It doesn't have the Column Shift information, but does need more lines for other Die Roll Modifiers. I added a spacer line for clarity too.

if OptRules.TwoD10LandCRT then
begin
if CombatDieRollMod = AutoVictoryModifier then
begin
AutomaticVictory := True;
DRMText.Lines.Add(rsAutomaticVictory);
end
else
begin // Either display the fractions (100ths) or rounded value.
AutomaticVictory := False;
// This is the net die roll modifier.
if OptRules.FractionalOdds then
DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMDieRollModifier +
SignedFloatToStr(DRMRounded, -1))
else
DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMDieRollModifier +
SignedIntToStr(CombatDieRollMod));

DRMText.Lines.Add(EmptyStr); // Spacer.

DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMCombatRatio +
SignedFloatToStr(Msg_LCRT.DRMRat / 100, 2));

if Msg_LCRT.DRMTer <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMTerrain +
SignedFloatToStr(Msg_LCRT.DRMTer / 100, 2));

if Msg_LCRT.DRMWet <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMWeather +
SignedFloatToStr(Msg_LCRT.DRMWet / 100, 2));

if Msg_LCRT.DRMDis <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMDisorganized +
SignedIntToStr(Msg_LCRT.DRMDis));

if Msg_LCRT.DRMTerr <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMTerritorials +
SignedIntToStr(Msg_LCRT.DRMTerr));

if Msg_LCRT.DRMFriction <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMCombatFriction +
SignedIntToStr(Msg_LCRT.DRMFriction));

if Msg_LCRT.DRMPara <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMParadrop +
SignedFloatToStr(Msg_LCRT.DRMPara / 100, 2));

if Msg_LCRT.DRMArm <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMArmor +
SignedFloatToStr(Msg_LCRT.DRMArm / 100, 2));

if Msg_LCRT.DRMHQS <> 0 then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMHQs +
SignedFloatToStr(Msg_LCRT.DRMHQS / 100, 2));

if OptRules.FractionalOdds then DRMText.Lines.Add(rsDRMFractionalOdds +
SignedIntToStr(Msg_LCRT.DRMFract));
end;
end

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
Shannon V. OKeets
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RE: winterized units

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

It wasn't intended to be a complete list and I realized right away that ground support, both air and naval, were actually part of the based odds calculation and not DRM's. I was just trying to show that an itemized DRM was possible. And I wouldn't suggest having an entry for every possible DRM, only those applicable to that combat. I'm not a coder, but I'm pretty good with contextual interpretation and to my untrained eye, it looks like the code you've copied does pretty much that. Of those you listed, "armor" is included on my list, I just called it blitz bonus. And you missed Nationalist Chinese attack penalty :D

I'm sure there are some very extreme cases where the list of applicable DRM's is too long to fit in the box, but that could trigger a summary instead, perhaps with a clickable popup list of modifiers. Or it could always be an optional "click here to review a detailed combat summary", leaving it uncluttered for those who don't need or want to see it. Or the window could have a scroll bar. Or instead of a pop up, it could be a hover over box. All of which could be toggled off as a screen layout setting for those who just don't want it.

How many optional features did you just list there? I lost count.[&:] Sure it is always possible to write more code to do more stuff. But at some point the cost:benefit ratio for incremental improvement becomes prohibitive. I did spend over 100 months of my life working on coding this game. Adding yet more features would run the risk of having me committed to a mental hospital. By the way, besides all the beta testers reviewing the 90+ forms, I also published them in this forum as I was developing them, seeking opinions from anyone and everyone. The complex forms, such as land and air-to-air combat, underwent dozens of major revisions.

[Chinese combat weakness affects the combat factors directly, as do attacking across rivers and forts, etc.]
Steve

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AxelNL
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RE: winterized units

Post by AxelNL »

Zartacla, the Australia bug was fixed with a lot of others, and then betatested. Hot-fixes run the risc of introducing very nasty regression bugs (i.e. like over Christmas). We caught a nasty one in the latest release which would have made you even more unhappy.

Regards

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RE: winterized units

Post by joshuamnave »

ORIGINAL: AxelNL

Zartacla, the Australia bug was fixed with a lot of others, and then betatested. Hot-fixes run the risc of introducing very nasty regression bugs (i.e. like over Christmas). We caught a nasty one in the latest release which would have made you even more unhappy.

Regards


It wasn't caught before it was released. I'm not trying to be a jerk, or mean - but that's a really huge bug to make it into a patch. Given the importance of the function (declaring war) and the frequency of occurrence (I tripped over it repeatedly, even after knowing about it. It wasn't limited to multiple DOW's in a phase, btw... Japan couldn't declare war on free france, period), one week was too long for a fix. There's no argument you can make that will change my mind about that, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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AxelNL
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RE: winterized units

Post by AxelNL »

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

ORIGINAL: AxelNL

Zartacla, the Australia bug was fixed with a lot of others, and then betatested. Hot-fixes run the risc of introducing very nasty regression bugs (i.e. like over Christmas). We caught a nasty one in the latest release which would have made you even more unhappy.

Regards


It wasn't caught before it was released. I'm not trying to be a jerk, or mean - but that's a really huge bug to make it into a patch. Given the importance of the function (declaring war) and the frequency of occurrence (I tripped over it repeatedly, even after knowing about it. It wasn't limited to multiple DOW's in a phase, btw... Japan couldn't declare war on free france, period), one week was too long for a fix. There's no argument you can make that will change my mind about that, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I think we mean the same. We betatesters should have caught that regression bug when it appeared, and we didn't. We need a bit of time for that. Sometimes we find stuff resulting in Steve feeding us a new version just before that goes out to you folks in the weekly cycle. When that happens we have even less time to find regression stuff. It is a trade-off between releasing a weekly fix versus taking more time to test fixes. There are no real winners in that discussion. I can remember you finding a weekly release important as well.

I think we both agree that it is frustrating - as we are so close to this majestic game functioning as we want it.. We are both looking forward to the period that the nasty bugs a gone, and Steve can work on the various other things.
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RE: winterized units

Post by brian brian »

I never launch an attack without a healthy sum of those critical random other bonuses.

In order to help people to learn MWiF, maybe it could ship with a paper map, some cardboard counters, and a pair of dice. That would probably help.
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Centuur
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RE: winterized units

Post by Centuur »

Well... I've never thought about this, but there is some sense in what Zartacla is saying. Not about the bug, mind you.

How can one expect new players to get to see the importance of the bonusses if they don't see this happening on screen and also what is happening and why? Sure, there are the books, but I think an extra button which pop up a list of what happenned would be useful here.

Not now, of course, but for the future this might be a good idea to add.

Peter
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RE: winterized units

Post by joshuamnave »

Ok, not technically a bug... attacking a city without a factory (2d10 charts). HQ and engineer included in the attack. The prompt to use engineers comes up even though using the engineers won't change the DRM.
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joshuamnave
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RE: winterized units

Post by joshuamnave »

What about this one? The +1 modifier appears to be affected by attacking across the fortification hex side. I don't see anything in the rule about that.

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RE: winterized units

Post by Mike Parker »

I would agree some sort of detailed DRM analysis pop up would be nice. A single button "Show Detailed DRM" that then pops up an informational only form detailing all the DRM's and how much they are
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Centuur
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RE: winterized units

Post by Centuur »

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

What about this one? The +1 modifier appears to be affected by attacking across the fortification hex side. I don't see anything in the rule about that.

Image

From the FAQ by ADG:

Q11.16-20 11.16.6 (Chart) Playing with 2d10, is the winterized bonus
halved when the winterized unit attacks
across a river?
Halved. Date 14/05/2008 11.16.6 (chart): Halve attacking bonuses (except HQ
support) when the combat factors of the attacking units
are halved.
14/05/2008

The same applies to attacking a fortification.

So the bonus of the German MTN is halved and thirded too. This therefore correctly reduces the weather effect from 4 to 3.83
Peter
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RE: winterized units

Post by joshuamnave »

Urgh... it may be in the FAQ, but it does not appear to be in the RAC and the FAQ wasn't shipped with the game. If the final DRM is going to be different from the rules because of an FAQ that doesn't come with the game, it's even more important to itemize the bonuses. That completely defeats the argument that the bonuses are already itemized in the rules.
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Centuur
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RE: winterized units

Post by Centuur »

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

Urgh... it may be in the FAQ, but it does not appear to be in the RAC and the FAQ wasn't shipped with the game. If the final DRM is going to be different from the rules because of an FAQ that doesn't come with the game, it's even more important to itemize the bonuses. That completely defeats the argument that the bonuses are already itemized in the rules.

To be honest, I still have to read the book with the RAC... [&:] I can't seem to find the time to do so, so I don't know if it is in there or not...
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RE: winterized units

Post by joshuamnave »

wrong thread
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