How cheesy is this?
As much as I like WITE, I remain convinced that if the Soviets defend as they defended historically, they will get decisively defeated. This is my first summer OF 42 in head to head as Soviet and I am starting to believe the same is true now.
This is the situation: fb.asp?m=3498799
The gamer in me wants to retreat the threatened units to the south of this mess now even though they are not seriously attacked. The loyal soldier in me wants to hold with the expectation the weakened Southwestern and Bryansk fronts reinforced by the 29th Army from the reserve Volokh front can hold the line. The gamer in my knows that if I try, they are toast.
What is the loyal WITEer to do?
Pre-emptive retreat?
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
RE: Pre-emptive retreat?
In the south a checker board with reserves that build morale for blizzard is the standard MO of the better SHC players.
So retreating, but yet counter attacking is the PC middle ground [:(]
So retreating, but yet counter attacking is the PC middle ground [:(]
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
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GamesaurusRex
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:10 pm
RE: Pre-emptive retreat?
Your assessment, rmonical, is correct... IF THE GERMAN PLAYER IS NOT PROHIBITED FROM DOING THE IMPOSSIBLE ON THE FIRST TWO TURNS OF THE GAME.
TO WHIT:
The infamous 'Lvov Pocket' maneuver on the Southern Front by the German. The game is completely flawed by the fact that it suffers several critical errors in the simulation.
1) There are no less than 4 river crossings missing from the map in the south between the Poland border and the Tarnopol area. This is missing movement cost in the area.
2) There is missing mixed broken ravine and swamp terrain in the same area. This is missing movement cost in the area.
3) There is missing bad weather in the same area. The weather was NOT CLEAR, IT WAS INTERMITTENT DOWNPOUR RAIN AND MUD. More missing movement cost.
These alone are reasons enough why the Lvov Pocket was an impossible event, but there were other reasons as well... (Hitler forbade an early thrust in the south so as to not draw attention to the Ploesti Oil Fields.)
With these facts in mind, I suggest you play with a House Rule limiting the German player to penetrating Russia south of the Pripiet Marsh NO MORE THAN 5 HEXES PER TURN FOR THE FIRST TWO TURNS. This will allow the Germans to penetrate exactly as far as they did in the war and will allow the Russian player the ability to rail out much of the Lvov area troops and avoid that pocket. This is critical to salvage WITE as a playable simulation because to do otherwise allows the German player to exploit the above errors in the game and do the impossible, collapsing the entire southern front (and thusly the entire Russian Army) in the first three turns of the game.
If you use this house Rule, you will find that the Russian has a chance of surviving 1942 with enough troops to attempt to drive the German out of Russia. That will still require retreating and avoiding combat much more than the Russians actually did in order to conserve troops, but a limited fighting withdrawal is still possible. Whether the Russian can reach Berlin is a different story. You have to play the game out to discover that. The doubtful nature of the end result makes for a good game.
(P.S. As for Pelton's suggestion that Russian withdrawal from undefendable soil is some how 'PC',... I say, "Nonsense !"... It is made necessary by the game's failure to provide historical replacement numbers of men and equipment to the Russian side in 41-42 and is certainly no more 'PC' than the German Army withdrawing troops back to Poland during the blizzard... Can you imagine how red Hitler's face would have been and how many German Command generals would have been removed by 'execution', if that had been done in real life ? LOL )
TO WHIT:
The infamous 'Lvov Pocket' maneuver on the Southern Front by the German. The game is completely flawed by the fact that it suffers several critical errors in the simulation.
1) There are no less than 4 river crossings missing from the map in the south between the Poland border and the Tarnopol area. This is missing movement cost in the area.
2) There is missing mixed broken ravine and swamp terrain in the same area. This is missing movement cost in the area.
3) There is missing bad weather in the same area. The weather was NOT CLEAR, IT WAS INTERMITTENT DOWNPOUR RAIN AND MUD. More missing movement cost.
These alone are reasons enough why the Lvov Pocket was an impossible event, but there were other reasons as well... (Hitler forbade an early thrust in the south so as to not draw attention to the Ploesti Oil Fields.)
With these facts in mind, I suggest you play with a House Rule limiting the German player to penetrating Russia south of the Pripiet Marsh NO MORE THAN 5 HEXES PER TURN FOR THE FIRST TWO TURNS. This will allow the Germans to penetrate exactly as far as they did in the war and will allow the Russian player the ability to rail out much of the Lvov area troops and avoid that pocket. This is critical to salvage WITE as a playable simulation because to do otherwise allows the German player to exploit the above errors in the game and do the impossible, collapsing the entire southern front (and thusly the entire Russian Army) in the first three turns of the game.
If you use this house Rule, you will find that the Russian has a chance of surviving 1942 with enough troops to attempt to drive the German out of Russia. That will still require retreating and avoiding combat much more than the Russians actually did in order to conserve troops, but a limited fighting withdrawal is still possible. Whether the Russian can reach Berlin is a different story. You have to play the game out to discover that. The doubtful nature of the end result makes for a good game.
(P.S. As for Pelton's suggestion that Russian withdrawal from undefendable soil is some how 'PC',... I say, "Nonsense !"... It is made necessary by the game's failure to provide historical replacement numbers of men and equipment to the Russian side in 41-42 and is certainly no more 'PC' than the German Army withdrawing troops back to Poland during the blizzard... Can you imagine how red Hitler's face would have been and how many German Command generals would have been removed by 'execution', if that had been done in real life ? LOL )
"Real Life" is a game... THIS is war !
RE: Pre-emptive retreat?
If your analysis is accepted (and why not,) would an edited map fix the issues? Don't think weather can be much changed in the editor, though.
Brings home the issue of realism vs. playing the game. Would be nice to get the Lvov pocket stuff off the table through such an intrinsic solution.
Hmmm... are there other areas where the map might be edited for a better game? Worth researching.
Brings home the issue of realism vs. playing the game. Would be nice to get the Lvov pocket stuff off the table through such an intrinsic solution.
Hmmm... are there other areas where the map might be edited for a better game? Worth researching.
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GamesaurusRex
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:10 pm
RE: Pre-emptive retreat?
Rivers on a simple map to compare. (If you wanted to edit the map.)
http://stayinkiev.com/uploaded/mapukraine.jpg
If: you don't want to edit the map:
House Rule = For the first two turns, German may not move any unit more than 5 hexes per turn into Russia anywhere south of the Pripiet marshes.
The move limit is simple, realistic considering terrain and weather conditions in the area at the time, and solves alot of the problem by allowing the Russian to rail out many of the units that the 'Lvov Pocket' exploit magically destroyed. There are still some units that get lost to pocketing because there isn't enough rail capacity to get them all out and there is still a trade off penalty because the rail used isn't moving factories.
The improvement to the game is that the Russian actually gets to move these units before they get consumed in the following futile attempt to stabilize the southern front. It provides enough "casualty padding" to get the Russian to the summer of '42 when the formation of Corps is possible. It does not solve the issue of the "Russian Retreat" in'41 with little combat because the game does not provide the Russian player with any means of resisting the German advance until the Corps are formed. Prior to Corps formation, the only Russian combat that isn't a waste of men and resources is the little that must be done to delay the Germans long enough to rail out the factories.
http://stayinkiev.com/uploaded/mapukraine.jpg
If: you don't want to edit the map:
House Rule = For the first two turns, German may not move any unit more than 5 hexes per turn into Russia anywhere south of the Pripiet marshes.
The move limit is simple, realistic considering terrain and weather conditions in the area at the time, and solves alot of the problem by allowing the Russian to rail out many of the units that the 'Lvov Pocket' exploit magically destroyed. There are still some units that get lost to pocketing because there isn't enough rail capacity to get them all out and there is still a trade off penalty because the rail used isn't moving factories.
The improvement to the game is that the Russian actually gets to move these units before they get consumed in the following futile attempt to stabilize the southern front. It provides enough "casualty padding" to get the Russian to the summer of '42 when the formation of Corps is possible. It does not solve the issue of the "Russian Retreat" in'41 with little combat because the game does not provide the Russian player with any means of resisting the German advance until the Corps are formed. Prior to Corps formation, the only Russian combat that isn't a waste of men and resources is the little that must be done to delay the Germans long enough to rail out the factories.
"Real Life" is a game... THIS is war !
RE: Pre-emptive retreat?
ORIGINAL: rmonical
How cheesy is this?
As much as I like WITE, I remain convinced that if the Soviets defend as they defended historically, they will get decisively defeated. This is my first summer OF 42 in head to head as Soviet and I am starting to believe the same is true now.
This is the situation: fb.asp?m=3498799
The gamer in me wants to retreat the threatened units to the south of this mess now even though they are not seriously attacked. The loyal soldier in me wants to hold with the expectation the weakened Southwestern and Bryansk fronts reinforced by the 29th Army from the reserve Volokh front can hold the line. The gamer in my knows that if I try, they are toast.
What is the loyal WITEer to do?
Retreat, It's what the army wanted to do. Despite the claims that Stalin would of been shot by some. (Though they never say who would of done it.)
You can't put up the historical fight the Axis players want, (have to do better than Guderian after all.), unless they follow the same historical constraints.
Building a new PC.
RE: Pre-emptive retreat?
ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
Rivers on a simple map to compare. (If you wanted to edit the map.)
http://stayinkiev.com/uploaded/mapukraine.jpg
If: you don't want to edit the map:
House Rule = For the first two turns, German may not move any unit more than 5 hexes per turn into Russia anywhere south of the Pripiet marshes.
I'm thinking more like movement equal to the shortened week Turn 1 is. For both sides.
BTW, no game map is going to have *every* river on it. Not at this scale. They either are in the hex or bent to fit a hexside
Building a new PC.
RE: Pre-emptive retreat?
Yes, the Russian must run in this game, or die. Just as I did with a lot of Germans during the blizzard to preserve their morale. Hitler would never have allowed me to run all the tanks back to Poland as I did in the game with Gamesaurus.
RE: Pre-emptive retreat?
I have not purchased or played the game yet but I have been reading through the forum sections here with great interest.
Out of curiosity, has anyone here played the game through trying to recreate the historical moves (and blunders) made by each side?
It would be interesting to see how the game OOBs compare against historical OOBs at certain times. Eg just before and after the winter of 1941. You could then assess how well the game mimics attrition and casualties, armament production and manpower reserves.
I have read that the game goes a bit askew after 1943, perhaps that is not true, but if it were and there are fundamental balancing problems would these not be revealed by a historical play through by 1942? Or is it not as simple as that?
Out of curiosity, has anyone here played the game through trying to recreate the historical moves (and blunders) made by each side?
It would be interesting to see how the game OOBs compare against historical OOBs at certain times. Eg just before and after the winter of 1941. You could then assess how well the game mimics attrition and casualties, armament production and manpower reserves.
I have read that the game goes a bit askew after 1943, perhaps that is not true, but if it were and there are fundamental balancing problems would these not be revealed by a historical play through by 1942? Or is it not as simple as that?
RE: Pre-emptive retreat?
ORIGINAL: Zantos
I have not purchased or played the game yet but I have been reading through the forum sections here with great interest.
Out of curiosity, has anyone here played the game through trying to recreate the historical moves (and blunders) made by each side?
It would be interesting to see how the game OOBs compare against historical OOBs at certain times. Eg just before and after the winter of 1941. You could then assess how well the game mimics attrition and casualties, armament production and manpower reserves.
I have read that the game goes a bit askew after 1943, perhaps that is not true, but if it were and there are fundamental balancing problems would these not be revealed by a historical play through by 1942? Or is it not as simple as that?
I'm not sure you'd be able to do a re-enaction approach. I think in 41 you'd need to play the Soviets. The AI will generate a decent Minsk pocket but you'd have to stand and fight voluntarily at say Kiev for that to recreate (and even so the AI doesn't tend to send Pzr Grps away from the original army groups). To me, the AI is a bit careless tactically (ie it attacks too much), great operationally (it will gleefully do pockets) and a bit *mheh* strategically.
Between players you can sort of get there with a bit of house rules, altering the settings and common sense. I know think the game has a nice balance where 1942 is becoming the key year - there are a few AARs on the go that indicate the potential for a German win but also, I think, confirm that a sensible Soviet player will re-enact their historical strategy that year.
In my current AAR with SigUP (we've both got threads up) we are into mid-November 1941 and I've lost about 1.8m prisoners. The result of that, and near continuous fighting is we are going into the Soviet counteroffensive with a reasonably realistic front line and the relative equity between the 2 armies that existed in reality. So you can get there.
Issue is, and hence the many heated debates, is that a group of players are into 'win at any cost' and 'if its not banned, its legal' approaches. Nothing wrong with that, as long as its between consenting adults. But don't expect any semblance of reality in consequence.
RE: Pre-emptive retreat?
There are various scenarios and campaigns that begin at different times & different places throughout conflict. Not all have been subjects of AAR's. Don't know if one of these different "starting points" is any more correct than another, but they are interesting to try. My point of playing is not to mimic history, but to enjoy some speculative operations. There is great detail, but AFAIK that might be mostly "eye candy." The various algorithms that affect outcomes are (and will remain) a mystery to me, but some think they have solved them.
We know the historical result. Uhhh... if you don't, Soviets won.
Buy the game, try your skill, and post your insights.
We know the historical result. Uhhh... if you don't, Soviets won.
Buy the game, try your skill, and post your insights.