First Scenario

jonj01 · Post by **jonj01** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:14 pm

Just played "In the Beginning" on hard setting as Germans. I have played lots of ASL in the past, so I am familiar with general tactics and knew I had to keep moving to win. I really like the game. However, I saw a couple of noob moves by the AI.

1) On turn one the hero in the north orchard ran adjacent towards my troops. He was eliminated immediately.

2) A full squad ran from cover of a building into the open to pick up a Molotov cocktail. He was eliminated immediately.

I have to admit I was a little disappointed in the AI play. Really, all the AI had to do..was sit and fire on my movement. When the AI did move, both movements were mistakes.

I'm very happy that a computer version of an ASL like game is out. Multiplayer play will be simplified. And just so you all know I quit playing ASL(over the internet) because it seemed like most time was spent looking up and interpreting rules (if I wanted to play a lawyer I would've downloaded a courtroom game).

I will play all of the scenarios and both campaigns. I will try to keep track of the problems with the AI decisions.

If the AI proves worthy, its possible this is the best game ever programmed.
If the AI needs work...I would be happy to help. I have always had some interest in how the AI makes decisions and my time would be free.

Charly G · Post by **Charly G** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:51 pm

I agree with you about problems with the AI in this scenario.
I win this scenario because many bad ideas by the AI (Hero, Leader and Squad Unit leaving cover of their building to go under my fire in clear hex with the hope to try to eliminate a German Shaken Unit).

jcrohio · Post by **jcrohio** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:04 pm

I have at times felt the AI becomes fixated on recovering dropped support weapons at the expense of putting itself into harms way. Nothing concrete that I could save and show you but just a feeling.

Jack

jonj01 · Post by **jonj01** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:16 pm

ORIGINAL: jcrohio

I have at times felt the AI becomes fixated on recovering dropped support weapons at the expense of putting itself into harms way. Nothing concrete that I could save and show you but just a feeling.

Jack

I feel the problem of the AI's ability to make a proper decision regarding the importance of support weapons may lie in the fact that my units are not "spotted" to the AI. Therefore the AI runs "out in the open", but to the AI it is not "out in the open"...
Keep in mind support weapons are important..for a lot of soviet units they are the only way they can attack anything over a 5 hex range.

Anyway, I'll try to take screenshots of every noob move of the AI. I would send these directly to the developers if they want my help. To develop an AI that can kick butt in a tactical level game is a real challenge.

markhwalker · Post by **markhwalker** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:22 pm

Jon...

Play a couple more scenarios. Try Partisan Defense as the Germans, or try the German campaign. Then I'd love to hear your opinions.

of an ASL like game is out

[:-] Except scale it bears very little resemblance to ASL. The emphasis in LnL is humanity and chaos. A different approach than ASL.

Charly G · Post by **Charly G** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:16 pm

Mark,
Playing "Partisan Defense" scenario as German is a very good challenge (not easy to win and no problem with the AI).
But I had problems with AI in "Pavlov's House" and "In the beginning". Russians don't defend their positions and sometimes it's a turkey shot. I will begin Campaigns soon. This game has nice immersion and a good narrative, I enjoy it.

moet · Post by **moet** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:28 am

ORIGINAL: Charly G
But I had problems with AI in "Pavlov's House" and "In the beginning". Russians don't defend their positions and sometimes it's a turkey shot. I will begin Campaigns soon. This game has nice immersion and a good narrative, I enjoy it.

I had too that problem in "Pavlov's House". I don't understand why those Soviet units (originally 3 stacks) decided to quit their building-objectives hexes (see image below).

Gizuria · Post by **Gizuria** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:34 am

I saw that happen when I played 'Pavlov's House' too. Not a good move in that particular mission as the 81mm mortar kills them with great efficiency and then they come out looking to rally the shaken units or pick up the dropped SWs. Playing on Hard, I managed to get a win but it was still a tough fight so I've no idea how tough it would be if the AI stayed in the stone buildings.

Tom Proudfoot · Post by **Tom Proudfoot** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:38 am

It looks a little enthusiastic, yeah. I'll take a look at it.

Gizuria · Post by **Gizuria** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:42 am

If you guys can tighten up the AI so that it stays in these positions, this will probably be the best small unit tactical game ever [&o] Even when they came out of their hiding places, I still enjoyed playing that mission. Maybe I'm just a sucker for the flamethowers.

moet · Post by **moet** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:53 am

Yes, it is fun to win, but on this scenario at hard difficulty level -- my very first scenario with the game -- I found things too easy. The work was done 2 turns before the end.

jonj01 · Post by **jonj01** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:53 am

Played "Pavlov's House" had killed all the russians by early turn 6. Whole platoons ran out in the open. Just like moet said. Played "Prokhorovka" scenario as the Soviets, the Tiger I tank(this is absolutely historically correct, tigers and panthers were at the battle of Kursk)and one of the PzIIIjs ran from battle off the game board before I even shot at them. These were SS tank units...they didnt run from the field of battle without getting shot at. And the AI infantry ran out in the open towards my men. It was a 12 turn game and by turn 6 I had killed all the russians. Both scenerios were on Hard setting. Under no circumstances should AI units run off the map without getting shot at if the job of the AI units is to defend or delay.

I had fun playing both scenerios...its like playing someone really really bad at squad leader. I'm the kinda of person who enjoys kicking someones butt.

So that's three scenarios and three AI failures.

Quite frankly simply setting all the AI units as "fixed" (that is cannot move but can fire) throughout the whole scenerio would have raised the challenge aspect in all three scenarios.

AI is hard to configure and i'm sure even harder to program. Years ago, I tried to configure the AI for Koruns Pocket a "Decisive Battles of World War II" game. It was operational size with a good decision engine. I wanted to make the Soviets more aggressive, but they just kept digging in when I wanted them to attack. Despite the importance I gave the hex I wanted them to attack at. This was an operation size game so all the AI has to do is calculate odds to decide to attack or sit or retreat. The AI for a tactical level game is significantly harder to program. One has to worry about LOS...range weapons..covering fire..a whole new set of problems an operational game can completely ignore.

Barthheart · Post by **Barthheart** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:04 am

ORIGINAL: jonj01

.... Played "Prokhorovka" scenario as the Soviets, the Tiger I tank(this is absolutely historically correct, tigers and panthers were at the battle of Kursk)and one of the PzIIIjs ran from battle off the game board before I even shot at them. These were SS tank units...they didnt run from the field of battle without getting shot at.
...

What version are you playing? This was fixed in version V1.03. If you load up the beta V1.05 you will have the fix for this.

jonj01 · Post by **jonj01** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:18 am

ORIGINAL: Barthheart

What version are you playing? This was fixed in version V1.03. If you load up the beta V1.05 you will have the fix for this.

It updated automatically on the 20th. No new auto updates since then. I'm sure I can find V1.05 somewhere on this forum and will update with that.

Barthheart · Post by **Barthheart** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:48 am

ORIGINAL: jonj01

ORIGINAL: Barthheart

What version are you playing? This was fixed in version V1.03. If you load up the beta V1.05 you will have the fix for this.

It updated automatically on the 20th. No new auto updates since then. I'm sure I can find V1.05 somewhere on this forum and will update with that.

Just above this thread in the stickies:

tm.asp?m=3546087

sambruzs · Post by **sambruzs** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:56 am

Cheers,

I have to agree with the AI comments posted here. I played Pavlov's House and Partisan Defense on the "Hard" level of difficulty. In one instance (Pavlov's House)soviets, with a leader, left their building and attempted to recover a SW left in the trench, adjacent to my German tank?? Other squads left the cover and "unspotted" terrain to come out into the open in the street. If "hard" makes the AI more "aggressive"... not suited to scenarios where soviets should stand fast, and let the enemy come to them.

Also - Why is there not an "undo" button. Not for all situations... but some, examples:

You are commanding an infantry unit with an MG-34. You're in the Operations Phase,
and you'd like to move it. Except -you forgot to take it
off the tripod back in the Rally Phase.

You forget to press the "assault move" on a vehicle... move it one hex. No can fire!

wodin · Post by **wodin** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:55 am

I always look out for your opinion. Surprised as I know you like your detailed games..so this really must have something for you to say this. It's your opinion that keeps it on my wish list. (Though another I listen too has a conflicting opinion:))

ORIGINAL: Fascist Dog

If you guys can tighten up the AI so that it stays in these positions, this will probably be the best small unit tactical game ever [&o] Even when they came out of their hiding places, I still enjoyed playing that mission. Maybe I'm just a sucker for the flamethowers.

moet · Post by **moet** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:15 pm

ORIGINAL: Barthheart

ORIGINAL: jonj01

ORIGINAL: Barthheart
What version are you playing? This was fixed in version V1.03. If you load up the beta V1.05 you will have the fix for this.
It updated automatically on the 20th. No new auto updates since then. I'm sure I can find V1.05 somewhere on this forum and will update with that.

Just above this thread in the stickies:
tm.asp?m=3546087

EDITED : OK, I get it, it is the 1.5 update beta, not the game beta that was going on before the official release.

Gizuria · Post by **Gizuria** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:08 pm

ORIGINAL: wodin

I always look out for your opinion. Surprised as I know you like your detailed games..so this really must have something for you to say this. It's your opinion that keeps it on my wish list. (Though another I listen too has a conflicting opinion:))
ORIGINAL: Fascist Dog

If you guys can tighten up the AI so that it stays in these positions, this will probably be the best small unit tactical game ever [&o] Even when they came out of their hiding places, I still enjoyed playing that mission. Maybe I'm just a sucker for the flamethowers.

Heh heh. Just to remind you that I like Company of Heroes too [;)] I'd say this is better though.

wodin · Post by **wodin** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:03 pm

Facist..Conflict of Heroes is the game I didn't enjoy. Though not keen on Company of heroes either.

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