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[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
You're holding a conversation with yourself? If that isn't a clear sign of insanity, I'm not sure what is.

Ah more! So according to you I'm a crazy, North Korean, amoral, immoral, lying, insane, sociopathic fool ...

Popcorn?

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Ah more! So according to you I'm a crazy <etc>

You're the one that just quoted yourself and asked yourself a question. I think the question of "crazy" has been suitably demonstrated.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Ah more! So according to you I'm a crazy <etc>

You're the one that just quoted yourself and asked yourself a question. I think the question of "crazy" has been suitably demonstrated.

And another.

Just making sure the Moderators have a summary.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
You're the one that just quoted yourself and asked yourself a question. I think the question of "crazy" has been suitably demonstrated.

And another.

Just making sure the Moderators have a summary.

You just made a crazy statement.

You just asked yourself a question from a quote from yourself. That's not crazy?

"Replaying or rehearsing conversations out loud- i.e. talking to yourself (very common sign)" - from schizophrenia.com

[Icemania]

And another insult. By all means please keep going Kayoz because I'm just going to keep defending myself and pointing out the myriad of flaws in your logic. Your responses just become more and more insulting while also becoming less and less logical in your retorts.

I quoted myself because you obviously have not read what I have written. The quote is an example of an area where I believe Matrix has strengths and where they merit respect.

The Bioware forum is filled with people that "hate" Mass Effect 3. They are freely allowed to voice their speculations so long as they remain within forum rules. Which you most certainly are not doing ...

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Icemania
I quoted myself because you obviously have not read what I have written. The quote is an example of an area where I believe Matrix has strengths and where they merit respect.

Don't believe that for a second.

You're holding conversations with yourself. The question wasn't directed at me, so I'll leave you to answer the question you asked of yourself, yourself.

[Icemania]

Time to wait for the Moderators to take action.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Time to wait for the Moderators to take action.

I call crazy where I see crazy. Your conversation with yourself is schizophrenic as far as I can see.

Seek professional help. Not the moderators.

[Gregorovitch55]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

The Bioware forum is filled with people that "hate" Mass Effect 3. They are freely allowed to voice their speculations so long as they remain within forum rules. Which you most certainly are not doing ...

Exactly the same on Egosoft's X Rebirth forum. Everyone is completely free to vent their frustrations and disappointment with Rebirth itself and to criticize the company's development decisions and practices that lead to it provided they do not use personal attacks and/or inappropriate language in which case the moderators step in immediately.

BTW I'm staring in disbelief at these recent exchange between yourself and Kayoz. It seems clear that if anyone posts views he disagrees with he will attack them using the variety of well known techniques we have evidenced here using intimidating and insulting language and that he will not give up, no matter what, whist the the victim continues to stand up for themselves and their point of view.

Happy to detail precise examples of his techniques as they relate to my posts if anyone thinks it useful.

[Darkspire]

This thread does not reflect well on the forum. Can we all agree to disagree and just ignore the thread?
Constantly picking points of contention does not do anyone any favors [8|]

Darkspire

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55
...will not give up, no matter what, whist the the victim continues to stand up for themselves and their point of view

You mean... like concepts such as "none of your business"? How about "no locus standi"? Would you prefer "busybody sticking one's nose into others' business"? I think we covered all versions of that point ad nauseum.

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55
Happy to detail precise examples of his techniques as they relate to my posts if anyone thinks it useful.

With the same level of precision and accuracy as your 10 games demonstrating DW's sales potential on Steam? Indeed it should be eminently amusing to see your "new" list. I sincerely hope it's as amusing as your last collection of so-called "facts".

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
This thread does not reflect well on the forum. Can we all agree to disagree and just ignore the thread?
Constantly picking points of contention does not do anyone any favors [8|]

I would - but Icy's new pet terrier seems to want to pick up the tattered remains of his position. I shot his argument down 6 days ago... and now he's back for a rematch.

*shrug* I'm happy to call it quits. It seems they aren't.

[Darkspire]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
This thread does not reflect well on the forum. Can we all agree to disagree and just ignore the thread?
Constantly picking points of contention does not do anyone any favors [8|]

I would - but Icy's new pet terrier seems to want to pick up the tattered remains of his position. I shot his argument down 6 days ago... and now he's back for a rematch.

*shrug* I'm happy to call it quits. It seems they aren't.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Darkspire

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Darkspire

This thread does not reflect well on the forum. Can we all agree to disagree and just ignore the thread?
Constantly picking points of contention does not do anyone any favors [8|]

Darkspire

I fully agree it does not reflect well on the forum.

We cannot ignore this thread. It requires Moderator action against Kayoz. Anything less allows the bully to get away with all of this inappropriate language and behaviour.

I have made a decision here to stand up for myself without using any of the language Kayoz has used.

It's more than possible to have a dialog on contentious points without resorting to such behaviour.

[DevildogFF]

/yet again, agree with Ice.

Please remove Kayoz. This forum would be a much better place without him.

Are there no moderators here anymore?

[hewwo]

whoooo so who's exited at the soonish release of universe? I know I am!

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: Darkspire

This thread does not reflect well on the forum. Can we all agree to disagree and just ignore the thread?
Constantly picking points of contention does not do anyone any favors [8|]

Darkspire

I fully agree it does not reflect well on the forum.

We cannot ignore this thread. It requires Moderator action against Kayoz. Anything less allows the bully to get away with all of this inappropriate language and behaviour.

I have made a decision here to stand up for myself without using any of the language Kayoz has used.

It's more than possible to have a dialog on contentious points without resorting to such behaviour.

You do know that the green button at the bottom of every post allows you to put that poster on ignore, right? I do it so I don't end up feeding any trolls. Saves a lot of heartburn too.

Some people feed off negativity, so no amount of standing your ground will work...when no one pays attention to them, it is far more effective. If they are ignored, it takes all the fun out of it for them.

And I'm joining the crowd that thinks this thread has long since lost any relevancy, and its time to put it to rest.

In closing, I will say there can be a happy medium. I want to continue purchasing from Matrix where I don't have the hassle of spyware on my PC just to play a game. So long as they continue to offer that service, I don't care if they offer it in other formats...it can only bring in more players.

[Int3]

Usually I don't post on boards, however, sometimes I have an.. Urge?.. to tell my opinion. I have been monitoring this thread cautiously, and, I have to say, what there is completely nothing wrong about points Kayoz made. His opponents' behavior seems to be rather childish (you know, like when teenager gets proven otherwise and then he freaks out), let alone what they simply can't stand their own ground at all (at least because it is hard to do so when your point is completely false). Kayoz's offensive (is it really? The way Icemania screams everywhere about need of immediate moderator intervention seems much more offensive to me) behavior is quiet understandable - some people just can't stand an ignorance. An unbelievable ignorance. If there is anyone who actually deserves a good ban, it is definitely not Kayoz.
Sorry for interrupting.

[Gregorovitch55]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

With the same level of precision and accuracy as your 10 games demonstrating DW's sales potential on Steam? Indeed it should be eminently amusing to see your "new" list. I sincerely hope it's as amusing as your last collection of so-called "facts".

Right, that is clear evidence of deliberate rather than accidental use on your part of a "Straw Man Argument" in an attempt to ridicule an opponent's position or view, and then use this as justification to insult, intimidate and belittle the opponent personally. Let's do a little forensics here to demonstrate to folks here how you go about it:

Firstly, the idea behind a Straw Man is to selectively edit or fabricate alterations to your opponents argument in such a way as to make it easy to refute or ridicule the fabricated version of it (the "Straw Man") in the hope people don't notice the refutation is invalid against the original argument and are swayed towards your position by your ruse. Wikipedia has a good example:

Straw man arguments often arise in public debates such as a (hypothetical) prohibition debate:

A: We should liberalize the laws on beer.
B: No, any society with unrestricted access to intoxicants loses its work ethic and goes only for immediate gratification.

The proposal was to relax laws on beer. Person B has exaggerated this to a position harder to defend, i.e., "unrestricted access to intoxicants". It is a logical fallacy because Person A never made that claim.

So let's look at how Kayoz uses the technique:

G: The reason Matrix is probably right not to use Steam to distribute it's core war game catalog is that it is itself the primary hub for serious war games and people who want to play serious war games will find their way here anyway. .... This is *not* true for space 4X games

K: And as you stated previously, Matrix has a firm foothold in the strategic gaming market.

G: Where you are very mistaken is that "Matrix has a firm foothold in the strategic gaming market"

K: It was YOUR statement, not mine. If you want to refute your OWN statement, then go right ahead. Go ahead and argue with yourself. I'll have no part in it. I don't do schizophrenia.

As we see what he has done is to change "serious war games" into "strategic gaming market" (the Straw Man) and then use that in his kicker about schizophrenia. Let's look at another example (sorry it's a bit TL;DR)

K: And more importantly, those "logged in" users mean little and less without demographic data. If they're millions of teenagers who's favourite game is Counter Strike (or whatever), that is irrelevant to Matrix sales.

G: The other misconception you have is that Steam is populated by teenagers playing multi-player FPS games. Sure there are a lot of those, but a glance at the top 100 games currently being played (which is actually playing now)shows a lot of people playing games of comparable complexity and depth to DW, for example:

• K: I'm bored, so let's look at YOUR numbers in a little detail:
  Given that DW is a 4x grand strategy game, I think we can safely eliminate the items in red. If it's not even a strategy game in the loosest definition, it can't be considered.
  Total: 186,739
  Genre eliminates: 97,108
  6 down, 4 left.
  You've lost over half of your numbers just on cursory elimination of games not even within DW's genre. Of the remaining, I think only Civ is close to DW - it's a real 4x game, while I'd debate that of the remaining, two are the same tedious spreadsheet game (EU and CK are just the same engine with different skins) and a click-fest C&C clone (AoE).
  So, you're left with about 1/3 the numbers that you started with. That's ONE example of the TEN you started with.
  Well done. A more illustrative example of Mark Twain's quote is hard to come by.
  1 left standing out of 10. If this were bowling, I'd say I'm having a good night.
  
  Again we see the Straw Man erected: Kayoz originally argues there is no evidence Steam users would affect Matrix game sales because "they're millions of teenagers who's favourite game is Counter Strike (or whatever)". I refute that with evidence of how many people on Steam are playing games of comparable depth and complexity to DW. Now Kayoz could have countered that with the simple ripost that why would someone who likes playing football manager be interested in playing DW, which is is a valid question, but instead he erects a Straw Man around "If it's not even a strategy game in the loosest definition, it can't be considered." and "Of the remaining, I think only Civ is close to DW". This is a Straw Man because I quoted figures for games (I consider) of "comparable depth and complexity" to DW as evidence against his original assertion that Steam users are "irrelevant to Matrix sales" and never suggested they were strategy games or 4X games.
  
  The question arises as to whether Kayoz uses the straw man technique deliberately to intimidate and bully people, or whether he does so unknowingly perhaps because he does not read what people say properly and makes incorrect assumptions or perhaps for some other reason. If we consider the wikipedia example about alcohol deregulation then if a politician used the straw man we would assume it was a deliberate ploy to sway public opinion towards his or her view (politicians use straw men all the time). If on the other hand an person in the street was canvassed about it they might unknowingly use it simply because they imagine streets full of drunken louts running riot and react emotionally to it.
  
  In my view the balance of probabilities suggests Kayoz does this deliberately. Firstly, he has used straw men 100% of the time against the issues I raised with him. Secondly he always ends his straw men with abusive and derogatory personal attacks. Thirdly, he starts the final post with "I'm bored" and ends with "If this were bowling, I'd say I'm having a good night". I suggest this implies he had plenty of time to consider carefully how he was going to approach his arguement in that post (not acting or reacting in the heat of the moment or emotionally) and that he considers his activities on the forum as some sort of game he is out to "win".
  
  If so I submit his behaviour intolerable and I certainly cannot see how members here can have a constructive and open debate about the future of game they love, or new interested people like me join in, in the presence of someone like this.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
Two wrongs do not make a right.

Nod to the voice of reason.

I'm done with this thread.