2.03 Update Feedback

[cbelva]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

If any of the developers has time, could you check if the issue with fallen out subunits in a campaign not being displayed as repaired even though you can't repair them (there's no way to increase the "hours" scale to repair them) is purely visual (as in: they're depicted as being knocked out in the force roster and subunits overview, but are actually there) or if the units are actually not there?

Yes, I reported that up the chain of command yesterday per your email you sent me. Rob has it and is looking at it.

[cbelva]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Comrade, did you know hasty units will switch to 'Move - Deliberate' orders when attacked by a ground unit or if an enemy unit is spotted.

In terms of how it's shown to me, that only happens when the unit is attacked, but not always. When an enemy unit is spotted, the unit proceeds with a "2" on the counter instead of an "M". The "2" also sometimes stays in place when a unit is fired at by lighter weapons.

-

Soviet artillery also barely inflicts any losses in the open, maybe because most elements start as regular? I'm not sure what's going on. The off-map NATO artillery firing at my tanks has only knocked out one or two of them in an entire game.

The small unit/single element unit issue is very annoying for the moment. Like some of the issues in the Grogheads 2.03 version, I'm considering waiting for the next patch as I'm suffering lots of unnecessary and simply silly losses.

West German MG elements don't have a documented AP or HEAT rating. They've destroyed a handful of tanks in both scenario 1 and 2 at 1 hex range. It's not clear what's going on, and the game doesn't really make it clear what weapon it is that causes these losses. I'm guessing the Panzerfaust and other handheld AT weapons tend to have a range of 1 hex, which is OK I guess, but the MG units don't have documented AP or HEAT weapons.

A lot of the enjoyment I get from the game is currently quickly removed by single element infantry units inflicting more casualties than the enemy tanks or full strength infantry units. Often, the full unit is quickly turned into just a one or two element unit, but it's those tiny units that are very dangerous.

A single Gebirgsjaeger element in the open destroyed three BMP-2D's and two-three Mechanized Rifle squads (half of which from a unit in a town) all by itself, whilst the two Mechanized Rifle companies next to it couldn't hit it for over an hour. The Gebirgsjaeger squad was eventually destroyed by artillery. That's just silly, and it happens all the time.

It's like an infantry unit gets a large defensive bonus when it is decimated, which allows it to inflict casualties that are totally out of proportion to its size.

Hey ComradeP, Can you send me some saved game files that have examples of what you are talking about so we can see if there is a problem. I personally have not experienced any of the problems you are talking about. Also, regarding rest/refit phase in the campaign, if you can seen a saved game file of the turn just before the scenario ends, I can look at the rest/refit phase. Thanks

[ComradeP]

It looks like there's a certain minimum of units that need to be fallen out in order for the player to be able to select a certain amount of time for rest and recovery. The VP costs for refitting didn't match going from the 2nd to the 3rd scenario either, though.

To clarify, in the version you have:

-an infantry unit that is attacked doesn't end up as a one or two element unit that is very difficult to kill, but still lethal?

-MG elements can't take out tanks from 1 hex away?

I'll see if I can get some saved games featuring suitable examples. However, if in your version infantry units keep taking losses normally and MG elements don't destroy tanks, the problem might somehow be on my end.

Edit: saved games sent.

[CapnDarwin]

ComradeP, we will look at the issues. an MG element without AT weapons should not get tank kills. They would have to be an active infantry element still up and running with the MG team. I will check on the lethality of reduced units too. It is possible I knocked something off kilter with everything we updated.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The Red Hammer campaign is less enjoyable than the School Teacher campaign thus far because the scenario designer seemed to have forgotten about the sudden death feature, which makes it impossible to capture the final objectives. The campaign essentially encourages poor play (if you overrun the West German forces early, you'll get a marginal victory at best). This might also be the case for the US campaign, as judging by some of the AAR's even if you inflict significant losses on the Soviets, you'll still get a marginal victory.

I haven't forgotten about Sudden Death in any of the scenarios. I had Sudden Death for months before you guys ever knew what it was. I have played every scenario to at least a draw. Maybe, the goal wasn't for you to get a Decisive Victory with every scenario in the campaign. Maybe, some of them are much tougher to beat the AI to pieces than others.

That doesn't mean that Sudden Death won't affect the out come of the battles because it will. Sudden Death is what it is, until we can get it tweaked into a better resolution. Until then, what you have now is better than what I had when I put the scenarios together. The scenarios won't be tweaked again until after Sudden Death has been fixed and I can get a new end of scenario resolution. Then we'll make some changes to the campaign scenarios.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP


The off-map NATO artillery firing at my tanks has only knocked out one or two of them in an entire game.

What scenario are you talking about? I don't remember there being a single scenario that has off map NATO artillery in it. There are a couple with Soviet off map artillery but I don't remember doing one with NATO off map artillery. Could be, I made them more than year ago and it's hard to remember each and every OOB for every scenario. If it was created since the release of the game I can promise there is no NATO off map artillery in any of those scenarios.

A lot of the enjoyment I get from the game is currently quickly removed by single element infantry units inflicting more casualties than the enemy tanks or full strength infantry units. Often, the full unit is quickly turned into just a one or two element unit, but it's those tiny units that are very dangerous.

Which is absolutely the same situation in real life. The smaller a unit gets the more dangerous it becomes. The more experienced men usually live the longest. The smaller the unit the easier it is to hide. Etc.

I have seen small units make heroic stands or seen them melt away. At the moment we are checking to see if they are making too much of a heroic stand but small unit heroics in the game are intentional.

It's like an infantry unit gets a large defensive bonus when it is decimated, which allows it to inflict casualties that are totally out of proportion to its size.

Which, again, is historically correct. I can show you dozens of instances where units that took heavy losses stood their ground and then decimated the attackers. Many of those instances involve Soviet attacking units.

Good Hunting.

MR

[ComradeP]

I haven't forgotten about Sudden Death in any of the scenarios. I had Sudden Death for months before you guys ever knew what it was. I have played every scenario to at least a draw. Maybe, the goal wasn't for you to get a Decisive Victory with every scenario in the campaign. Maybe, some of them are much tougher to beat the AI to pieces than others.

That doesn't mean that Sudden Death won't affect the out come of the battles because it will. Sudden Death is what it is, until we can get it tweaked into a better resolution. Until then, what you have now is better than what I had when I put the scenarios together. The scenarios won't be tweaked again until after Sudden Death has been fixed and I can get a new end of scenario resolution. Then we'll make some changes to the campaign scenarios.

Sounds good.

The further the objectives are to the rear, the more difficult it is to capture them before Sudden Death if you play well. The objectives in the School Teacher campaign make for a more natural flow compared to the ones in the first scenario of Red Hammer.

What scenario are you talking about? I don't remember there being a single scenario that has off map NATO artillery in it. There are a couple with Soviet off map artillery but I don't remember doing one with NATO off map artillery. Could be, I made them more than year ago and it's hard to remember each and every OOB for every scenario. If it was created since the release of the game I can promise there is no NATO off map artillery in any of those scenarios.

The second one in the Red Hammer campaign.

Edit: after checking it in the editor, it seems the West Germans have infantry-based mortars. The AI must've spread those out over the map.

Which is absolutely the same situation in real life. The smaller a unit gets the more dangerous it becomes. The more experienced men usually live the longest. The smaller the unit the easier it is to hide. Etc.

I have seen small units make heroic stands or seen them melt away. At the moment we are checking to see if they are making too much of a heroic stand but small unit heroics in the game are intentional.

It might be realistic up to a certain extent, but the difference between most of a unit being killed in minutes, and one or two surviving squads surviving for an hour in the open seems weird.

I agree that small units should be less vulnerable, but not to this extent.

Which, again, is historically correct. I can show you dozens of instances where units that took heavy losses stood their ground and then decimated the attackers. Many of those instances involve Soviet attacking units.

We're talking about units in the clear, with very limited to no AP or HEAT weapons destroying tanks at 1 hex distance. Regardless of heroic last stands, that's not good for balance to mention one thing. When 30 to 40 experienced tank crews with experienced supporting infantry are trying to kill you, and you're in the open, your life expectancy isn't 1 hour.

[jenrick]

The smaller a unit gets the more dangerous it becomes.

In that case what army would ever use large formations or units? I'll give you that they become harder to spot, but not more dangerous/lethal. I'm perfectly fine with small formations being difficult to kill, but they should not inflict any more potential casualties then a full strength unit would. Unless you just happen to have Audie Murphy lugging the typewriter in the HQ section who is finally able to get in the fight when everyone else dies, it makes absolutely NO sense for a decimated unit to have a higher firepower/damage potential/etc. then a full strength unit. Honestly it shouldn't even be close to the firepower capability of a full strength unit.

Take a look at the SEALs or LRRP/LRP units of Vietnam. They were small units composed of some the best infantry forces we had available to us at the time. When engaged by an enemy with armor or forced to engage an enemy with numerical superiority in something other then an ambush, they died. If they could choose their ground, hit once and get away, they were very successful, but in a traditional "battle" they were simply to small of a unit to be effective. Small units of infantry is just not that effective against other larger formations of infantry or armor unless operating in an ambush or guerrilla fashion. Once they are located they are dead.

-Jenrick

[CaptCarnage]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The Red Hammer campaign is less enjoyable than the School Teacher campaign thus far because the scenario designer seemed to have forgotten about the sudden death feature, which makes it impossible to capture the final objectives. The campaign essentially encourages poor play (if you overrun the West German forces early, you'll get a marginal victory at best). This might also be the case for the US campaign, as judging by some of the AAR's even if you inflict significant losses on the Soviets, you'll still get a marginal victory.

Well look at that! It says decisive victory!
I didn't overrun the West Germans early - I just had a good plan. After 4:26 hours of scenario time I had the Germans reduced to 30% and captured over 60% of the objectives.
Play better. Move faster. I very much disagree that this scenario encourages poor play. I find it almost insulting...

[CapnDarwin]

Smaller units or depleted large units do have reduced lethality compared to larger numbers of sub-units. They are in some cases harder to kill. More so in high cover. Any unit with reduced morale and readiness is also less effective at getting kills. Many, many factors involved and the are very dynamic based on the situation as it unfolds. WE will be looking into reports and scenarios where odd behaviors are seen to make sure there is not some kind of bug involved and not just the karma of unlucky random numbers chaining up. That can happen too.

Enjoy the update. We are working on a couple hotfix level items and also already deep into 2.04 work on Sudden Death changes discussed before the holidays. We will be collecting reports from a few venues before jumping on a hotfix release in order to do one and not mess up the timing on 2.04. Minor bugs will get swept into the 2.04 update.

Thanks!

[Lowlaner2012]

I have done over 10 tests with the exact same situation..

I had 10 veteran T-80's assaulting the hex and then in the same clear hex as 1 elite recon infantry element, I have to say although in some tests the inf unit was hard to kill, they inflicted no casualties against the T-80's even although they had 40mm HEAT rounds, also in the majority of test reruns the recce infantry were wiped out by the tanks...

I cant seem to reproduce the small unit over lethality issue..

[CapnDarwin]

What kind of T-80? A late model with ERA will be very hard to take down with a LAW type weapon. In the open, grunts will have a very hard time with any system other than ATGMs. Replay that in a town and things will change as the grunts can get better shots off using the buildings to an advantage.

[Lowlaner2012]

It was a T-80 U with ERA lvl 4, so I guess the 40mm HEAT rounds couldn't get through, the game played the close combat between the infantry and tanks as it would have gone in real life... reassuring I think.

I should have time to run the same test in a urban area tomorrow, its getting late in UK..

[CapnDarwin]

Without getting the benefits of urban setting and more flank/top shots the "U" is a beast and a small AT weapon is really limited in getting a kill shot.

[jenrick]

Is there an over run mechanic in the game system? If it were possible to simply steam roll into a hex occupied only by infantry I think it would go a long way to overcoming the "super squad" issue. Intentionally driving into a rifle platoons prepared area is a bad plan, but if all you've got is a squad of guys with a LAWS and rifles, it shouldn't be an impediment to a company of T-80's.

-Jenrick

[Lowlaner2012]

The infantry in my clear hex test did not last long against the T-80 U's, there Bradleys got killed by the T-80s before the tanks entered the hex, then the T-80s entered the hex and in 9 out 10 tries of my tests the Infantry did not last long, after the tanks had destroyed the Recce Infantry they moved to another hex..so they proved to be no or very little impediment to the red tanks..

This was all in a clear hex, I am going to do the same test with a single infantry element in a urban hex this afternoon to see what happens..

[ComradeP]

My first replies were a bit grumpy, I was looking forward so much to playing the game that I got frustrated by the by itself minor issues with a big impact. Apologies.

Well look at that! It says decisive victory!
I didn't overrun the West Germans early - I just had a good plan. After 4:26 hours of scenario time I had the Germans reduced to 30% and captured over 60% of the objectives.
Play better. Move faster. I very much disagree that this scenario encourages poor play. I find it almost insulting...

Keep in mind that the AI's plans are randomized each time as far as I know.

What I meant with that it encourages poor play is that the player is encouraged to make a flanking move to get to the objectives in the rear, instead of removing the enemy's capability to resist as quickly as possible.

In my case, the AI's units were mostly at the first river line and were simply overrun. The "move faster" you mention is actually what crippled my chances of a decisive victory: the majority of the AI's forces were gone when my forces were barely halfway across the map.

If I had wanted to win a decisive victory, I would've needed to outflank the AI's positions in one part of the map, and would have to take several hours to move to the objectives in the rear instead of destroying the enemy as quickly as possible. In those instances, I would've needed to game the system in a way instead of going for the most efficient outcome.

That's what I'm trying to say: if you play well and move fast, you're not likely to get to the western or eastern parts of the map in a scenario where the AI has most of its units on "your" half of the map or around the center. You need time to move across the map, and that time might not be available if you can destroy most of the enemy forces early.

-

highlandcharge: maybe it was also due to the type of infantry squad? I haven't encountered recon infantry that I could identify as such (the Soviets and West Germans use vehicles instead of mixed vehicle/infantry units) and it happened for regular infantry squads.

In terms of casualty causing potential, it seems that it's mostly the (M)MG element that somehow takes out my vehicles. In the Piep Piper, a single Soviet MG element destroyed 3 dug-in Marders at 3 hex range, and another one destroyed a Leopard A1A1 also at 3 hex range, which arguably has poor armour but should still be able to take ~12.7mm rounds.

They could be a chain of random rolls with poor results, but it's becoming a lengthy chain, particularly for the MG units.

There's also another part of the issue: the player can't control the targeting priorities of his units as far as I'm aware, and when a one or two element unit is next to my stack of tanks, the tanks will continue to fire at that unit instead of other targets.

I'm not entirely sure how the firing system works in practice, if the blue and red lines happen at the same time as far as the game's concerned or in the order in which they're displayed. When the small infantry element units are near my tanks, they no longer get the first shot in engagements with enemy armour because their attention has moved to the closest unit. They seem to be attacking other targets much less frequently in any case, presumably as there's only an X amount of times a unit may fire.

MG's no longer being good anti-armour weapons and targeting priorities favouring stronger targets would remove some of the extremes I'm seeing.

Again, it's quite possible it's just a problem on my end.

[Lowlaner2012]

I would not write it off as a problem that is just on your end until me or somebody else has done lots of similar tests, so it was a soviet MG element against WG armor?..I will try a few tests to see what happens.

The test I ran was a Recon element with 40mm HEAT rounds v probably the best Soviet tank in a clear hex, a T-80U with level 4 ERA, so its no wonder they couldn't make a scratch on the T-80s... now thinking about it.. can a APC like the Marders or a Leopard A1 be damaged by the 12.7 mm rounds to a point where they have to fall out in this game?

I am thinking the optics or some other damage that makes the tank to damaged to fully function... to be honest I don't really know how deep the damage system goes in this game.

[ComradeP]

so it was a soviet MG element against WG armor?

Or WG infantry/MG against Soviet armor for the Red Hammer campaign.

It isn't entirely clear what sort of damage "area" damage is and armor influences the result, and we can't see what kind of ammo is used in the shot (if the game includes multiple variaties, possibly purely for calculation purposes).

[Tazak]

Are we overlooking a softkill, a squad of infantry with LAW can still disable a T80U in CQB/FIBUA. I suspect a few well placed 40mm HE rounds into the optics would blind a tank, couple with a attack on it tracks and you have a 45tonne rodblock