Question, weapon & sensor modifications using Editor

[Sardaukar]

Hi, I made this kick-ass version of Israeli UAV Eitan as deep-penetration strike/ESM/ECM support version. It can carry 1000 kg sensors/electronics internally, so why not make use of that.... [:D]

Is there any way to make this UAV (and other modified planes) to sit in airbase waiting to be launched? Seems I can only add them already in flight.

[mikmykWS]

You might be able to use the delta templates but honestly haven't tested this yet.

Thanks!

Mike

[Sardaukar]

I can of course in Editor launch individual plane, delete rest at airfield, clone it, do all changes, RTB all, ready them again. But it's slightly time-consuming. [:D] Would be better to have access on parked planes in scenario directly. Like you can right-click plane in air to access weapons/sensors.

[mikmykWS]

Yeah its less than ideal but might be what we have until we get there.

Thanks!

Mike

[mx1]

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

You might be able to use the delta templates but honestly haven't tested this yet.

Thanks!

Mike

It does not work for me. Delta templates only work for units deployed on the map. If the unit is stationed at the airfield applying template does not change sensors nor weapons. The only workaround so far seems to be the one given by Sardaukar. My personal feature request would be to make delta templates work on units at bases.

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: mx1

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

You might be able to use the delta templates but honestly haven't tested this yet.

Thanks!

Mike

It does not work for me. Delta templates only work for units deployed on the map. If the unit is stationed at the airfield applying template does not change sensors nor weapons. The only workaround so far seems to be the one given by Sardaukar. My personal feature request would be to make delta templates work on units at bases.

I second that request. Or direct access to planes' weapons/sensors at airfield. Even when using my workaround, most weapons are impossible to change, since aircraft start to rearm with their old stuff when landed. Sensors will stay or weapons if unit didn't have weapons load-out determined in database in first place. I have to test something else too. Back in a bit. [:D]

[Sardaukar]

OK, I managed to find a way how aircrafts can retain their edited loads. It'd pretty awkward and looks funny on Weapons window...and I don't know if weapons will actually work when not attached to correct load-out/mount...

You select Reserve loadout (which basically doesn't load anything). Launch aircraft (clone as many times as needed). Add desired weapons and sensors when on air (note that Clone does not clone your edited weapons...which is pain in the ass...)..to every plane. Group them and select Home base (if you don't, all cloned a/c select closest applicable base, we don't want that). RTB all, wait until all are parked and readying, use editor's "Ready Immediately" (remember to select "Reserve". And then, while game shows planes without load-out (Reserve load-out), they retain weapons you edited.

I need to test if weapons can actually be used when edited this way, but here is an example. It's just to show it can be done (it's F-16I normal strike load-out with SPICE 2000 weapons. Note I changed flares to be Dual Spectrum (I doubt IDF/AF uses single-spectral ones anymore) and changed AMRAAMS to C-7 model (Israel bought at least 200 of C-7 few years ago).

[Sardaukar]

I have absolutely no idea (yet) IF weapons will launch from ADDS-2 mount (bit funny) and what sort of mount arc they have (how do you check the arcs in game (apart from editor when adding them) anyways)?. ADDS mount is also overloaded (33/22), so no idea if that causes problems too.

I might have to add some reasonable mounts to that plane to add weapons to them, if weapons do not launch, or if they have now 360 degree arc set (that'd not be too realistic either, I think). [8D]

I have a feeling that I am trying to break this game! [:D] Try anything, try everything, it may work!

[Sardaukar]

Now I am checking if plane retains weapons etc. using Ferry Load-out (which seems to be more logical and weapons go into Load-out, not into ADDS).

No, that does not work. As long as Load-out has something set into it, it overwrites the edit when readied.

[Sardaukar]

OK, next iteration. [:D] This seems more useful, no problem with weapons overload in mount and can give separate arcs for different weapon systems (not sure how important that is e.g. different A2A missiles etc.). I have absolutely no idea whhat "Reserve" load-out does for fuel/range calculations etc...but..I'll find out. [:D]

[Sardaukar]

OK..game doesn't recognize drop tanks etc. added this way when fuel is calculated. This does not bode well...

EDITED:

Managed to do things I wanted to do. It's not optimal or even close but...

Weapons in added mount (in this case ADDS-2) DO WORK even when not meant for that mount (at least in manual attack, no idea if AI will use them, tested that by adding second mount with forward arc for SPICE 2000. You might want to add mounts with different arcs for different store you want to add. Everything is fine as long as your selected load-out (in latest case Ferry) does not overwrite your weapons/stores.

Obviously, there will be problems. I do not know how Load-out will affect mission calculations (mission profiles etc., since Ferry does have different profile) OR if AI will be able to use aircraft modified this way. That will be my next test.

[Sardaukar]

95% success. [8D]

This is only for single strike (you cannot automatically reload modified loads), using my modified Operation Sling of David. process is painful and lot of work, but possible. Bit easier way would be just launch your planes and edit them on air, but I wanted saved scenario with specific non-standard load-outs/systems.

In Editor:

- plane retains it's edited weapons/systems if they are added to place where Load-out does not overwrite them. Thus, you can launch a/c with Ferry configuration (in this case I used ferry to get max. number of Drop/conformal tanks, some A2A/A2G load-outs might work too in some cases too.), edit them when air, RTB them, rearm immediately (basically in this case refuel immediately), reset scenario time and save. When you load scenario, your edited planes are ready to use (of course it says Ferry in load-outs and you cannot see actual load-out, but you see them when airborne).

- AI can and will use those added weapons and you can add planes to suitable missions with no problems. Just tested it with SPICE 2000, Amraam and Python 5 (as in picture below).


- there might be some problems with RTB when Winchester etc., so you might have to shepherd your planes bit more. At least test plane didn't think it was Winchester before doing ground strike, but I had to manually disengage it to not to use cannon.

[ComDev]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

OK, I managed to find a way how aircrafts can retain their edited loads. It'd pretty awkward and looks funny on Weapons window...and I don't know if weapons will actually work when not attached to correct load-out/mount...

You select Reserve loadout (which basically doesn't load anything). Launch aircraft (clone as many times as needed). Add desired weapons and sensors when on air (note that Clone does not clone your edited weapons...which is pain in the ass...)..to every plane. Group them and select Home base (if you don't, all cloned a/c select closest applicable base, we don't want that). RTB all, wait until all are parked and readying, use editor's "Ready Immediately" (remember to select "Reserve". And then, while game shows planes without load-out (Reserve load-out), they retain weapons you edited.

I need to test if weapons can actually be used when edited this way, but here is an example. It's just to show it can be done (it's F-16I normal strike load-out with SPICE 2000 weapons. Note I changed flares to be Dual Spectrum (I doubt IDF/AF uses single-spectral ones anymore) and changed AMRAAMS to C-7 model (Israel bought at least 200 of C-7 few years ago).

Wow hehe, I was kinda wondering how long it would take before someone discovered that trick. Seems you found most of the shortcomings we foresaw as well. Pretty clever, well done [:D]

Another problem (from B490-ish onwards) is of course that the payload weight/drag figure is stored on the loadout itself. So when we eventually decide to do a loadout editor we would, in addition to just changing the weapon quantities as we do for mounts and mags, also need to find an easy/understandable way to set flight profile and range for the custom loadout, then (automatically) re-calculate the drag-pr-kg-of-payload figure and finally calculate correct reserve fuel (which in turn affects drag calc which in turn affects reserve calc - solving that one for the DB editor burned out quite a few brain cells on your's truly). Remember that with higher payloads where you don't expect to drop any ordnance and that have a '20 min loiter at SL' reserve you need a larger reserve fuel qty as well.

So... [;)]

Command has become a really (really really) complex sim hehe. Quick Harpoon3-style solutions is a thing of the past, and what may have started out looking like a simple 'loadout editor' will easily become a real headache.

As always, I'm open for suggestions on how this could be implemented, incl screenshots of what the 'loadout editor' window might look like in the sim. Remember that in addition to the above params, one should also have the option to set loadout Role, Day/Night capability, Weather capability, Ready time, and various upcoming/planned stats such as Winchester/Shotgun logics, mandatory/optional weapons, etc. And FINALLY there would have to be some sort of on-the-fly validation of the parameters, like F-16 with AGM-65A/B can not be night attack or all-weather capable, GBU-10 with Atlis pod is day-only clear-weather while GBU-24 with the same pod would be limited all-weather, F-16s that lack the night-attack flag on the aircraft itself is not all-weather/night attack capable with Mk82s but will be night-attack capable if you add LANTIRN pods, F-5A without radar is a day-only fighter, etc etc. Then there's combination of weapons on the same loadout, say GBU-24 (limited all-weather), JDAM (all-weather) and Mk82 (capabilities depends on plane) on a F-15E with night-attack capable pod. And if you think it has gotten complex I probably should mention that we've barely gotten started hehe. There are hundreds of validation checks in the Command Database Editor on loadouts alone.

Soooooooooooo...[;)]

I guess I should welcome you to hell [:@][:D]

[Sardaukar]

Yea, I can see the problems. My head starts to hurt even to think about load-out editor calculations... [X(]

That sort of editor would probably need dozen pull-down menus and several tick-boxes. Then it could show compatible weapons (and maybe tick-box to show mission but not plane compatible weapons, sort of override just in case wanting to try some what-if stuff).

You can blame Baloogan to put me into this with his video about editing weapons/sensors. [:D] I wanted to figure out how to do it for parked planes. [8D]

My workaround in this scenario was mainly to upgrade existing jammers/sensors/decoys/expendables to newer standard. With otherwise standard load-outs, performance/mission profiles stay "approximately" same. After all, swapping about similar internal equipment (word here is "about") to another should keep things near original. Same with swapping "similar" external pods. "Similar" is also a word covering quite a variety. [:D]

All bets are off if doing weapons load-out "re-build" e.g. using Ferry-mission and adding weapons load-out to that. As emsoy said, this would use calculations of Ferry mission with that configuration and any slapped-in weapons/pods/etc. would not figure in those calculations. It'd be a "cheat" of a kind.

[ComDev]

The advantage of using ferry loadout as a base is of course that it has no drag pennalties [:)]

The disadvantage is of course that it has no proper strike profile, role and day/night capabilities which may become a problem when we get around to implementing more advanced features in the sim.

[cwemyss]

Don't forget, weapons payloads don't just happen, at least not these days. They're calculated, simulated, tested, and verified.

And it doesn't always go well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tynni6wpYZ0

Weapon separation is about the most complex aero problem that exists. Two moving bodies, each with its own flow characteristics, in very close proximity at a range of speeds. Just because a pylon can hold 2000 lbs doesn't mean a plane can carry and safely use any existing 2000 lb combination of things.

[mikmykWS]

Couldn't pay me enough to do that.

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: emsoy

The advantage of using ferry loadout as a base is of course that it has no drag pennalties [:)]

The disadvantage is of course that it has no proper strike profile, role and day/night capabilities which may become a problem when we get around to implementing more advanced features in the sim.

Yep.

One could get quite adventurous with this "feature" discovered. [:D] At least I did aim (apart from just testing stuff) mainly for changes that'd keep original strike profiles and capabilitied while upgrading some (mostly it'd be internal/expendables/pod switching to more advanced models). Not too keen to ruin the scenarios using Ferry and slapping on ton of weapons that do not appear in in-game flight calculations. [8D]

E.g. (just for my own consumption) I have upgraded Israeli strike package in Operation Sling of David quite considerably. Since I am not the original author and using also sort of copyrighted material, won't even dream of releasing it on public. But some of those changes just could not (yet) be done without resorting to aforementioned tricks.

You can see where my ideas (some) about strike came from here:

http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/author/larry-bond/

Added some personal information about IAD/AF capabilities to pot..and I am reaching the point where I am satisfied with results (95%) [:D] I'd still like to swap easier some weapons...like upgrading AIM-120C5 -> C7 and Python 4 -> 5 etc.