Making Allied Lemonade-Chickenboy (IJ) vs. SqzMyLemon (AD)

[JocMeister]

As a AFB I would love any Japanese adventures on Christmas Island. Very close to PH and very far away from something Japanese. [:)] I´m also in the firm belief that OZ cannot be "cut off".

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

As a AFB I would love any Japanese adventures on Christmas Island. Very close to PH and very far away from something Japanese. [:)] I´m also in the firm belief that OZ cannot be "cut off".

Not cut off, but it can be made...complicated.

[Grollub]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

As a AFB I would love any Japanese adventures on Christmas Island. Very close to PH and very far away from something Japanese. [:)] I´m also in the firm belief that OZ cannot be "cut off".

Not cut off, but it can be made...complicated.

I'm with the other Viking dude on this one. The Southern ocean is huge and gives the allied player every opportunity to keep the SLOC to AUS open anyway.

With that said, I think it's even more complicated for the IJN to uphold any credible threat ... and if he wastes to much assets on this, he becomes vulnerable elsewhere. Too little assets assigned and it gives the USN the chance of picking on the supposed raiders instead thereby attriting the IJN. All this for very little output if the allied player knows what he's doing.

[Chickenboy]

Thanks for the discussion, guys. Like most things Japanese in this game, I think it's a risk: reward proposition. Just because I take something early doesn't mean I have to defend or keep it. Would it be worthwhile to take Diego Garcia with-say-an SNLF and an AV for floatplane support? Same with Christmas island (P).

Is it worth having two divisions (plus copious support) of Japanese strung out at the far end of a long line of communications? Probably not. Is it additive to the Allied early war troubles-at least for a few months? Probably.

I view Christmas island (P) as even more problematic with a Manila opening move. Those old battleships are at PH waiting for an opportunity for shore bombardment. Instead of the Gilberts or Marshalls, I've now moved a very viable target of opportunity to the very doorstep of an intact Pearl Harbor. Anything I put there will get smashed by shore bombardment.

That *may* make for an interesting 'bombardment bait' that he can't resist. That could be actionable too.

Lots of move:countermove opportunities here.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Lots of move:countermove opportunities here.

Which I beleive is the goal of '42 IJ ... you need to create opportunities for you to draw the allied capital ships out to play. And it is always hard to predict what will draw the allies out.

[zuluhour]

You IJN fan boys are so sneaky. [:D]

[AW1Steve]

Andre , might I suggest you use a modification of my small island gambit? Christmas island is not a small island, it's a keeper. If it can hold a division of troops , then you can defend it. Build it as big and strong as you can , then let your enemy bleed heavily to take it.

Small islands are not worth defending. But they are useful. Use the anchorages, but DO NOT improve the real estate. If held by your opponent, land with an oversize force. Kill everything on it, bombard the hell out of it, take it. Then have a victory celebration , run up the flag and salute it, then evacuate the island, leaving nothing behind. You then land a tender of whatever you need (AV or AS , occasionally a AGP for PT boats). Move in your VP type aircraft , be they PBY's or Emily's. Then mine the hell out of it. I like to use fast tenders (for the allied player I use 27kt AVD's, I don't think the IJN has an equivalent) so that they can run like hell when the enemy comes. Let him take and occupy the island if he wants. After he's repaired the damage , landed troops and supplies , come back with a BIG bombardment group and a regiment. Smash, kill everything in sight , run up the flag and retreat. Repeat as often as necessary. In the case of Diego Garcia , I'd base a sub tender and a bunch of subs there to wait at the edge of the worm hole. And hope that (To Borrow from the Moose) "monsters" come. So you can torpedo them.


I don't know how much it leads to victory , but for me one of the great joy's of the game is driving your opponent %%^%^&** NUTS! In this , well placed small islands can be your friend.



One more suggestion for players: spend less time studying tracker, production gizmos' and computer data on logistics and supplies. (Unless you want to fight a McNamara or Rumsfeld type war. I've nothing against those gentlemen , but don't want to be a "Bean counter field Marshall") and instead spend more time studying maps. And by that I mean the geography. What islands can hold large bases , and where can you put level 5 airfields? You'd be shocked at how overlooked many "treasures" are. Christmas island is a great example , but there are many, many others.

Christmas island for me , when I play allied , is an "Insurance policy". If PH is sub blockaded , then send ships there as a supply depot and "rally point". I don't use it as attack base (there is nothing within range to hit) but as a back up for PH , and the 1st "way station" to OZ. Losing it would be a real pain in the butt. And don't dismiss the "irritant factor". You can run convoys around it, but it makes life difficult , (especially if long range I-boats are based there) and eventually in will annoy you enough that you'll feel the need to take it back. I-boats blockading PH are enough of a reason. I-boats supported by Emily's are a real agony.

Just my thoughts. For whatever they are worth. [:)]

[Grollub]

Good points all. I guess it all comes down to what makes your opponent 'tick', that is if he feels that ChrI (P) is worth fighting for, thus creating what you labeled "opportunities" (nice point of view btw) [:D] ... but if so, you must also think on how you present the "bait".

For example, in my last game my opponent took ChrI(P) with quite some assets during spring 42, but left it too heavliy defended. The screenshot below is from august 42. With such assets in place I *never* even considered doing an assault to retake it. Better to leave it as a huge POW camp instead, just keeping an eye on it. Those troops and naval assets didn't accomplish much, especially since i rerouted my convoy lanes. If the game would have continued and he had left those assets in place, I probably would have invaded the Gilberts and cut the island off for the rest of the war instead. And if he had decided to exfiltrate those troops that would've been a major operation in itself giving me an opportunity to snipe at the edges ... before invading the now less defended island.

To get back to the point - it all depends on how the allied player you're currently playing values different bases. As you've surely guessed by now, ChrI to me is "nice to have" but definitely not a "must have". As I would guess from Steves comment, and from what I've seen in some AARs, others put more value in it.

It also ties in with what you want to accomplish on a higher level? If the aim is to at least try to cut off the SLOC to AUS then yes, it probably fits in to the plan, with the caveat that you must also cut the SLOC on the western side of AUS for the move take make any sense. If the aim is to try to lure out the USN to play and sink warships, well that could work depending on how you present the bait and if the allied player then thinks it is worth the attempt.

... and no, I really don't feel that there are *any* bases that I, as an allied player, really really *must* retake. I will defend some bases (including ChrI) more heavily, but that's it. If the IJ player takes it, I just shrug and adapt the plan to do something else. But that's me ... [8|][:D]

With that said, DG is another of those "nice to have" bases to me. It all depends on if it looks like the IJN is going to make a serious attempt at India, in which case I probably would reinforce it a little heavier than i normally do.

BTW, ignore the stacking limit shown in the screenshot below. It comes from opening the old (non-SL) game with the new SL map loaded.

[witpqs]

A big part of the game is time. Making the SLOC to Australia longer causes the Allies to use up more time for some things. In some cases that matters, in others it doesn't. But it's not just about fully cutting the SLOCs to Australia.

[Grollub]

True .... you always have to juggle the factors "time-space-force". You could be right that the time won for the IJN in a long perspective outweighs the assets time, space and forces used to take ChrI. That is a little hard to foresee though and depends on your long term goals [:)] Gain more time to conquer Aus? Gain time to build up a credible defense in depth?

[witpqs]

Perhaps even just make the Allies take longer enough that the political victory/defeat/draw tilts that much more towards IJ.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Grollub

... and no, I really don't feel that there are *any* bases that I, as an allied player, really really *must* retake. I will defend some bases (including ChrI) more heavily, but that's it. If the IJ player takes it, I just shrug and adapt the plan to do something else. But that's me ... [8|][:D]

That cuts to the heart of my philosophy as Allies. Later on, it simply doesn't matter which way I go, so long as I am mindful of my time constraint. Once I have the assets available, I look at which route(s) make(s) the most sense and will do that. I guess I can't say "and then I do that" because I haven't actually done so against a human [8D].

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Grollub
... and no, I really don't feel that there are *any* bases that I, as an allied player, really really *must* retake. I will defend some bases (including ChrI) more heavily, but that's it. If the IJ player takes it, I just shrug and adapt the plan to do something else. But that's me ... [8|][:D]

With that said, DG is another of those "nice to have" bases to me. It all depends on if it looks like the IJN is going to make a serious attempt at India, in which case I probably would reinforce it a little heavier than i normally do.

I'd say this is close to my philosophy as IJ as well. There are some "nice to have" bases that are worth the expenditure of some men and / or material. I'd "give" more to take-say-Oahu than-say-Tabitua because of it's perceived impact on the Allied war effort and my ability to defend. But everything has a price.

If the Allies left Pearl Harbor empty (bear with me, for the point of illustration), I'd be foolish to not land a company of SNLF there and capture it. Whether or not I can hold it for the duration is a different question. If I can use the amphibious landing bonus and steal a march on the Allies NOW while they're recoiling, it may save me time, labor and effort later. But I also don't feel the need to focus EVERYTHING on Pearl Harbor capture and destroy / render ineffective the majority of the combined fleet needed to do such a thing. Is it worth blunting my spear, 4-5 divisions and all of my shipping? Heck no. It's a risk:reward / cost:benefit analysis.

DG and Christmas island are both in the "nice to have, could stick in my opponent's craw" bases. If I build them up too much, then the temptation to take them back in a bloody amphibious invasion would also dissipate. If the Japanese make anything too "expensive", the Allies will just deflect and re-emerge elsewhere, negating the value of any obtrusive real estate that I have captured.

I like the ability to tempt the Allied players. Let them expend their energies early and often capturing outlying islands whilest, playing for time, you build your core tier 2 and 3 defenses.

If playing for points, there are some islands that are more worthwhile to hold until January 1, 1943 or January 1, 1944. Noumea (New Caledonia), Suva, Port Moresby, Rabaul and a handful of others come to mind. If autovictory is at hand, I'll hold these as necessary to buttress my points. Thereafter, they lose their value and are merely an outlying base, ready to be rendered strategically meaningless.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Grollub
... and no, I really don't feel that there are *any* bases that I, as an allied player, really really *must* retake. I will defend some bases (including ChrI) more heavily, but that's it. If the IJ player takes it, I just shrug and adapt the plan to do something else. But that's me ... [8|][:D]

With that said, DG is another of those "nice to have" bases to me. It all depends on if it looks like the IJN is going to make a serious attempt at India, in which case I probably would reinforce it a little heavier than i normally do.

I'd say this is close to my philosophy as IJ as well. There are some "nice to have" bases that are worth the expenditure of some men and / or material. I'd "give" more to take-say-Oahu than-say-Tabitua because of it's perceived impact on the Allied war effort and my ability to defend. But everything has a price.

If the Allies left Pearl Harbor empty (bear with me, for the point of illustration), I'd be foolish to not land a company of SNLF there and capture it. Whether or not I can hold it for the duration is a different question. If I can use the amphibious landing bonus and steal a march on the Allies NOW while they're recoiling, it may save me time, labor and effort later. But I also don't feel the need to focus EVERYTHING on Pearl Harbor capture and destroy / render ineffective the majority of the combined fleet needed to do such a thing. Is it worth blunting my spear, 4-5 divisions and all of my shipping? Heck no. It's a risk:reward / cost:benefit analysis.

DG and Christmas island are both in the "nice to have, could stick in my opponent's craw" bases. If I build them up too much, then the temptation to take them back in a bloody amphibious invasion would also dissipate. If the Japanese make anything too "expensive", the Allies will just deflect and re-emerge elsewhere, negating the value of any obtrusive real estate that I have captured.

I like the ability to tempt the Allied players. Let them expend their energies early and often capturing outlying islands whilest, playing for time, you build your core tier 2 and 3 defenses.

If playing for points, there are some islands that are more worthwhile to hold until January 1, 1943 or January 1, 1944. Noumea (New Caledonia), Suva, Port Moresby, Rabaul and a handful of others come to mind. If autovictory is at hand, I'll hold these as necessary to buttress my points. Thereafter, they lose their value and are merely an outlying base, ready to be rendered strategically meaningless.

Of course you are right Andre. All land is "situational". It's only a base to attack, retreat to , or supply from. Or to complicate your opponents life by doing so. Geography in itself is strictly a "force multiplier" , no use of itself (unless of course you can extract resources), but it is mainly to coerce your opponent into doing what you want him to do. So you can kill him. (Or as you are fond of saying , "liquidate"). [:D]

So what next for the "Lemon kid"? [&:][:)]

[Chickenboy]

December 12-14, 1941:

China: Confused melee around the 'highlands' triangle: Chengyang, Loyang and Nanyang. Chinese forces are bugging out en masse whilest Japanese are trying to cut off escape routes and capture road nodes leading to Sian.

Highlights: Railways clear from the North to Shanghai. Eviction of Chinese means that the 8th Garrison unit*, which was 'bought out' of Kwangtung and the reconstituted 63rd Division can rail into Shanghai and replace the 21st Division in garrison. The 21st Division is tasked with helping to clear Luzon and will start loading tomorrow.

Chengchow captured. Rail hub for incoming infantry from North and East.

Chinese forces in the central plains drubbed. Chinese forces in South make for Changsha to slam shut the gate there.

[Chickenboy]

December 12-14, 1941:

DEI:

No Allied shipping to speak of in the Sulu or Celebes sea. They're bugging out en masse. A few xAK or xAPs are torpedoed by IJ submarines north of Java.

Northern Borneo will be under control by tomorrow. Air HQ three days out of Singakawang to set up a base for "Netties". The LCUs here (along with incoming reinforcements) will be reloaded to attempt a coupe de main on Palembang, depending on what aerial surveillance has to say over the next few days.

Tarakan, Davao, Kudat and Jolo invaded within the two days.

I move an air combat TF (Kaga, 2x CVL, CVE) into range of Allied naval search. Could their presence be misconstrued as KB? The real KB will arrive at Truk tomorrow. Here's hoping that KB's "absence" from the Pacific promotes aggressive Allied defense forward-maybe even a carrier raid on Truk? [:)]

[Chickenboy]

December 12-14, 1941:

Phillipines:

Mauban falls to the PA ID-the paratroopers weren't enough to hold 'em off. However, the PA only manages 2:1 odds. The paratroopers do not retreat. 14,000 reinforcements land the next day and rout another PA attack. The Phillipine Army division is crushed the day following. IJA LCUs advance west along the road hex. They should be inside Manila within a week.

North, the 111th PA ID is crushed at Vigan by the reinforced Japanese presence. Their retreat to San Fernando is followed by armored units. These units attack again the following day, capturing San Fernando and again routing the shell of this division.

Recon shows the Allies falling back to Bataan. I hope so. I'd prefer that to Clark Field, with its terrain bonuses. IJAAF reinforcements arrive at Vigan. This (the reduction of Clark, Bataan and Luzon in general) will be an IJAAF 'job' within a week.

Hong Kong:

"Hello, you poor and misguided Allied..." begins the announcement from Tokyo Rose. The city falls on 12.14.41. Troops will rest up and then I will need to make a decision about their disposition(s). Shall they stay in China and crack open the "Kweiyang corner" and unhinge the Chinese right flank or shall they be shipped to the Phillipines for reducing Luzon? Alternatively, can they put on Sumatra or Java extra special early? Decisions decisions...

Ground combat at Hong Kong (77,61)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 21400 troops, 326 guns, 218 vehicles, Assault Value = 567

Defending force 5825 troops, 132 guns, 80 vehicles, Assault Value = 138

Japanese adjusted assault: 590

Allied adjusted defense: 225

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Hong Kong !!!

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
Walrus II: 6 destroyed

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
567 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 34 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 15 disabled


Allied ground losses:
6556 casualties reported
Squads: 238 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 468 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 25 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 167 (167 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 69 (69 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 6


Assaulting units:
38th Division
66th Infantry Regiment
19th Ind. Engineer Regiment
67th Ind.Infantry Battalion
20th Ind. Engineer Regiment
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
5th RF Gun Battalion
2nd RF Gun Battalion
1st Hvy.Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
68th Ind.Infantry Battalion
2nd Mortar Battalion
20th Ind. Mtn Gun Battalion

Defending units:
Rifles of Canada Battalion
Winnipeg Grenadiers Battalion
Kowloon Brigade
1st Middlesex Battalion
102nd RN Base Force
Hong Kong Fortress

[Chickenboy]

Pacific:

"Naked" SNLF groups spread out throughout the Gilberts and other islands in the area. Shortland and Baker island are captured. The landing on Canton is intercepted by an Allied heavy cruiser. The landing forces are minced by Louisville.

While this is a setback, it's to be expected. These amphibious TFs are operating on the bleeding edge of the octopus' tentacles and are unsupported.

I suspect that he thinks this has deflected Japanese interest in Canton. I venture he has moved Louisville back to Pearl to celebrate his victory and rearm. I'll have another SNLF group land there within two days. KB will support operations against Christmas island within 10 days.

Day Time Surface Combat, near Canton Island at 153,143, Range 15,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Yunagi, Shell hits 2, heavy fires
PB Nagata Maru, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
xAK Tenyo Maru, Shell hits 12, and is sunk
xAK Kamikaze Maru, Shell hits 14, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CA Louisville, Shell hits 5

Japanese ground losses:
1088 casualties reported
Squads: 55 destroyed, 61 disabled
Non Combat: 39 destroyed, 22 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 19 (12 destroyed, 7 disabled)

Damaged Yunagi-with some SNLF clinging to her damaged foredeck-will try to make for Jaluit. It would be nice to reconstitute a fragment of this group instead of losing the lot.

[obvert]

You have a nice big screen! [&o]

[pontiouspilot]

Beware of squeezing those lemons too hard….it's 35 below up here and you will need a hydraulic vice to make any impression at all!

The small island debate is interesting. I find much harder to capture and improve many if these as Japan see player than it's worth……frankly I only want them to support a few sets of eyes and maybe a sub base.