Question for Those Who Play Japan (Lokasenna welcome now)

[Encircled]

Hard to say. No one's ever done it!

True!

I just can't see the KB, the invasion force and all the other stuff not being spotted well before it arrives.

[JocMeister]

4 million supply is absolutely nothing to the Allies. I have 115 million to spare in mid 45. Don´t remember how much I had in 43 but probably in the 10th of millions. Loosing AC factories on the other hand...ouch! [X(] Not sure but I seem to recall that these cannot be repaired but that might be an urban legend. I think someone invaded the WC with everything Japan had in a game once. Didn´t work despite everything set up optimally. I believe it was an Human Japanese player vs the AI and it still din´t work.

But I don´t think anyone have attempted to land on the HI that early!

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

Au contraire. It is potentially a massive amount of supply and fuel the Allied player will lose out on.

Unlike Japan, CONUS never has too little supply to repair anything. It would take the time, yes. 2000 Oil at LA to 1000, reduced to 500 on the re-take is 150 days back to 2000. The supply is not a factor.

Isn't it impossible to repair these for the Allies? So you'd be stuck at 500, at best, plus whatever the refineries ended up at and without the AC factories. It would be a big blow. Likely never to happen, but much more than the Allies can do against Japan proper with a 'volunteer' landing as the only targets with those kinds of facilities are well protected.

No, the Allies repair industry, ex-captured aircraft plants, same as Japan. With the same supply needs and times. I have repaired HI and LI in China many times.

There is one manual section I have never come to peace with, and which has been discussed on the forum. It concerns factories being permanently destroyed by "firestorm." That term is not defined so far as I know. So a bombing campaign from the Canadian islands on SeaTac might permanently destroy aircraft factories, or it might not, if the damage were caused by Manpower/fire attacks..

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

I believe the Allies can repair, but only 1 point per day at a cost of 1,000 supply.

Let's say you damage oil, refinery capacity and HI in Los Angeles by 75%. That is 1500 oil, 1875 refinery and 615 HI to repair. That would cost almost 4 million in foregone supply to repair!

You only get that if there are substantial US engineers at the base when they retreat, and favorable die rolls. Doing 75% damage to all three is highly unlikely.

An Allied player would probably never repair the HI; you don't need the points and CONUS supply is in the excess millions even in 1942. I'd repair the other two. As I said, the supply needed is trivial. The time in your example would be five months. In exchange Japan has activated the US emergency reinforcements, especially the huge device dump at SLC (fighters too), as well as tied up the KB off CONUS and used at least several divisions at a place they will be destroyed 100% and not otherwise taking Phase 1 objectives. This also gives a lot of VPs to the Allied player. As an Allied player I'd like this move more than not.

The loss of the aircraft factories would hurt if the game went to late-war. But with this move by Japan I don't think that would happen if the Allied player knew his business.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: obvert


This would have to be done well before 43, and i it was, those number would not be in SF at 1/43.[:)]

This is my CONUS and nearby supply state in early November 1942.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

The allies have that sitting in SF by the start of '43

The risks far outweigh the gains

You hit the nail on the head! Even if the West Coast was totally undefended, you are still committing much needed resources to an operation on the "left end of nowhere". And to be of any real use, it would have to be done as early in the game as possible---at the same time Japan needs to be grabbing the vital resources of SE Asia before the Allies can build up a defense. Just because the game's mechanics make something possible does not make it practical or sensible.

[CT Grognard]

What a Japanese player could do with so much supply...[&o]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
There is one manual section I have never come to peace with, and which has been discussed on the forum. It concerns factories being permanently destroyed by "firestorm." That term is not defined so far as I know. So a bombing campaign from the Canadian islands on SeaTac might permanently destroy aircraft factories, or it might not, if the damage were caused by Manpower/fire attacks..

I seriously doubt you can get firestorms going with Japanese bombers. [:)]

[Bullwinkle58]

We have some results. Pac Fleet HQ reports a landing in the Home Islands. Depot Divisions activated. Outcome still in doubt. More to follow.

--BT--

[Sabre21]

From what it sounds like to me is that both a landing on the west coast of the US using the special fast TF's on the first turn or landing a suicide force into a Japanese location to do nothing more than trigger a game mechanic that would eat up tons of resources by activating emergency units and possibly destroy large numbers of factories are both extremely gamey and in my opinion would be a game ender. I wouldn't play someone if I thought that is a tactic they found acceptable. Fortunately by pbem partner is like minded and just as new to this as I am.

I reckon that's where HR's come in and what 2 players are comfortable with.

[Bullwinkle58]

I have the first post-landing turn in hand. Have not given orders or looked at it in detail. Wanted to show how this happened before I lose the thread in my mind.

Reviewing my last post on the operation, codenamed SHANGRI-LA, readers will see that I had selected a "Cadillac" landing on one target. This was due to limited approach vectors and limited unrestricted infantry units to spare at this point in a war not going well for the Allies.

The target selected was Utsonomiya. The factors were location on the SE flank of the HI where I thought the best chance of penetration existed, a small aircraft factory base and limited industry, combined with best intel showing only a base force of about 1350 men present.

The 148th US Army regiment was combat loaded at SF on two fast xAPs: Mariposa and Thomas Barry. One good DD, USS Laffey, was detailed to accompany to ward off submarines. The three traveled in company to PH where they re-fueled. Then the Mariposa and Laffey were combined into one Amphib TF, with Thomas Barry trailing in Follow by 4 hexes. My main concern was a DL hit; I hoped if one were sighted the other piece would not be and could continue alone.

The group was routed NW, passing just west of Kure I. and two hexes due west of Midway. At that point it was given a destination in the Kuriles, where I had previously landed an SST's-worth of raiders on a base not labeled with Japan's national code (no depot activation then.) The regiment did not have any prep for Utsonomiya; it was prepped for San Francisco. Despite Japan's lack of Sigint I didn't want to chance it. With the destination in the Kuriles inserted waypoints were done to take the group to a position east and one hex south of a point 12 hexes from the target. Speed was Mission.

About two turns after passing Midway a flying wedge of three fleet boats were brought up from the south and directed NW in advance of the landing group. They were looking for ASW TFs, passing merchants carrying outbound supplies, and any DL hits from air search. The course chosen had trade-offs in risk due to Marcus I. possible Mavis search as well as the fact that Japan has extensive ops in the Aleutians and is running many TFs in that direction. My subs west of the Aleutians have not determined any routine tracks for incoming TFs, so it was possible one could stumble onto the incoming landing.

This is a screenshot taken a couple of days before the landing. Note the subs and landing force group.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

From what it sounds like to me is that both a landing on the west coast of the US using the special fast TF's on the first turn or landing a suicide force into a Japanese location to do nothing more than trigger a game mechanic that would eat up tons of resources by activating emergency units and possibly destroy large numbers of factories are both extremely gamey and in my opinion would be a game ender. I wouldn't play someone if I thought that is a tactic they found acceptable. Fortunately by pbem partner is like minded and just as new to this as I am.

I reckon that's where HR's come in and what 2 players are comfortable with.

Noted.

We have no HRs. My opponent and I are completely comfortable with this. Apparently you are not familiar with the Doolittle Raid, another "impossible", "suicide" operation that nevertheless changed the course of the war.

We now return to our scheduled program.

[Bullwinkle58]

This screen shot shows the next day. The subs are being consolidated to focus on DL from air search. No detection is seen. The Laffey, having done her job, is detached to head home. This is both to save a DD (I have nowhere near enough right now) and to reduce the ship count in the lead TF to one ship for DL reasons. My own subs are early-warning for surface TFs now.

In retrospect I think I should have detached Laffey and nailed her to the coast between the target and Yokohama/Tokyo. I think the landing ships will be sunk by aircraft, but still, having a blocker would have eaten ops points and ammo from any responding surface assets.

Note moonlight. Not planned, but a nice bonus.

[Bullwinkle58]

The landing, taken from the movie file.

Lokasenna's email with turn (in part):

"Not sure how you got through my Nav Search . I took a screenshot for the AAR. There IS one hole, which would match up with just one unload phase for you, but I'm not sure you came from that way. So either my trained pilots blow, or... "

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

From what it sounds like to me is that both a landing on the west coast of the US using the special fast TF's on the first turn or landing a suicide force into a Japanese location to do nothing more than trigger a game mechanic that would eat up tons of resources by activating emergency units and possibly destroy large numbers of factories are both extremely gamey and in my opinion would be a game ender. I wouldn't play someone if I thought that is a tactic they found acceptable. Fortunately by pbem partner is like minded and just as new to this as I am.

I reckon that's where HR's come in and what 2 players are comfortable with.

Noted.

We have no HRs. My opponent and I are completely comfortable with this. Apparently you are not familiar with the Doolittle Raid, another "impossible", "suicide" operation that nevertheless changed the course of the war.

We now return to our scheduled program.

And if you had read much on that particular mission, you would know that Halsey's TF was spotted 600 miles off shore by one of the thousands of small fishing boats that had been drafted into service and that the Japanese did in fact react, although wrongly, but did not activate a nationwide force of reserves. It is nice to have hindsight in knowing exactly where your opponent is and isn't so as to take advantage of a game mechanic whereby a regiment could destroy dozens of square miles of factories just by landing for a single day.

There was no way an invasion force could have secretly arrived off of either the Japanese or US coasts without alerting everyone after 7 Dec.

But again, as long as your opponent is fine with these type "tactics", then all is well.

[Bullwinkle58]

Start of the turn, before orders inserted.

Note Laffey well away. Subs are returning to patrol areas.

Troops ashore. Mariposa has DL of 10/10. Thomas Barry still offshore, also with 10/10. Probably will not make it in to unload even a phase's worth. Should I have grouped into a 2-ship? Maybe. But with a DL and interception trade-off. Always with the decisions in this game . . .

[Bullwinkle58]

The CR from the landing. Mostly to show one more pin-up. [:)]

Now to look at what got ashore and determine Shock or Deliberate.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

From what it sounds like to me is that both a landing on the west coast of the US using the special fast TF's on the first turn or landing a suicide force into a Japanese location to do nothing more than trigger a game mechanic that would eat up tons of resources by activating emergency units and possibly destroy large numbers of factories are both extremely gamey and in my opinion would be a game ender. I wouldn't play someone if I thought that is a tactic they found acceptable. Fortunately by pbem partner is like minded and just as new to this as I am.

I reckon that's where HR's come in and what 2 players are comfortable with.

Noted.

We have no HRs. My opponent and I are completely comfortable with this. Apparently you are not familiar with the Doolittle Raid, another "impossible", "suicide" operation that nevertheless changed the course of the war.

We now return to our scheduled program.

And if you had read much on that particular mission, you would know that Halsey's TF was spotted 600 miles off shore by one of the thousands of small fishing boats that had been drafted into service and that the Japanese did in fact react, although wrongly, but did not activate a nationwide force of reserves. It is nice to have hindsight in knowing exactly where your opponent is and isn't so as to take advantage of a game mechanic whereby a regiment could destroy dozens of square miles of factories just by landing for a single day.

There was no way an invasion force could have secretly arrived off of either the Japanese or US coasts without alerting everyone after 7 Dec.

But again, as long as your opponent is fine with these type "tactics", then all is well.

There's one at every party.

[Bullwinkle58]

Short-lived happiness. Took a look and only 3 squads got ashore in the unload phase. %&@$! draftees! Should have sent Marines . . .

Oh, well. No attack this turn. One can always hope the Japanese pilots have been drinking again. If not, the depot divs were the meat of the objective. And SHANGRI-LA has one more phase to come.

[JocMeister]

[&o]