Mapping Italy..

[FrankieITA]

I live in the Padan Plains so actually nearby is most croplands and marshes. My town (Bologna) sits on the hilly prodromes of the Appennines so I'd like to talk about what I know for sure.
I've been in Puglia and I confirm the countryside is quite rough, hilly and broken in different valleys that stretch from the western "mountains" (I'm referring to the Puglia central mountaineous backbone, not sure if they're above 800meters) straight into the coast. I'm not sure about terrain visibility, Italy is rarely a place where you can see more than ten Kms ahead and even in croplands visibility is restricted by Bocage-like division between the land lots.
Southern Italy is quite arid, so I'm not sure if it would be correct to depict the hills as covered in woods. I'm sure that is the case for central Italy down to Rieti all along the Appennines: rough hilly terrain fully covered with light and dense caduceous(NOT evergreen plants like coniferae) forests. But regarding the area you have already drawn, I would represent the rough terrain without woods, apart from Sila mountains that are surely heavy covered in dense woods. If I remember correctly from my child lessons of Geography, Italy vegetation is prominently caduceous apart from Alpes and few zones of the Appennines, like Gran Sasso National Park in Abruzzo IIRC.
Edit: A friend of mine possess a Olive plantation, olives are large and low-branched trees, packet tightly in order to save space, because the fruits are picked with nets stretched above the trees, that are shaken in order to make the mature fruits fall. I would hardly think a tank like the Sherman could even get inside that labirinth, not only because Olive trees are really hard to knock down but also because the branches are really low (even less than 2 meters) and they would ruin antennas, periscope, sights, etc. Visibility is limited because olive plantations tend to be put on hill slopes, I remember vaguely that's because of the certain kind of terrain needed for oil quality Olive trees.

[Lobster]

Ah yes, and here is another problem in TOAW. This area has very bad floods sometimes in fall and winter. So if you make it arid there will be no rain in the game I think. Unless there is some way to make arid so there is seasonal heavy rain. So, average rain is not so much. But seasonal rain can be very heavy.

[FrankieITA]

Southern Italy is more prone to landslides because of lack of trees in the vegetation: the most arid and windy weather deteriorates the superficial terrain, making it brittle and shaky. Seasonal rains come with violence sometimes and the terrain literally slides down the hillside, no tree roots are here to keep it firm and the common bushes of "Macchia Mediterranea"(typical low height bush vegetation of Southern Europe and Northern Africa) are not enough to prevent this.
That's more common in Calabria and Basilicata IIRC.

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: frankieITA

I live in the Padan Plains so actually nearby is most croplands and marshes. My town (Bologna) sits on the hilly prodromes of the Appennines so I'd like to talk about what I know for sure.
I've been in Puglia and I confirm the countryside is quite rough, hilly and broken in different valleys that stretch from the western "mountains" (I'm referring to the Puglia central mountaineous backbone, not sure if they're above 800meters) straight into the coast. I'm not sure about terrain visibility, Italy is rarely a place where you can see more than ten Kms ahead and even in croplands visibility is restricted by Bocage-like division between the land lots.
Southern Italy is quite arid, so I'm not sure if it would be correct to depict the hills as covered in woods. I'm sure that is the case for central Italy down to Rieti all along the Appennines: rough hilly terrain fully covered with light and dense caduceous(NOT evergreen plants like coniferae) forests. But regarding the area you have already drawn, I would represent the rough terrain without woods, apart from Sila mountains that are surely heavy covered in dense woods. If I remember correctly from my child lessons of Geography, Italy vegetation is prominently caduceous apart from Alpes and few zones of the Appennines, like Gran Sasso National Park in Abruzzo IIRC.

Funny, i couldn't get a translation for caduceous except that it's the staff of Hermes [:D]. But i know what you mean. I've been in Toscana and Umbria but not further south than Lago di Bolsena. Okay, then this what i thought, though i have put light woods to the hills in the southern part of Calabria. From Google Maps it seems to be justified, but with a big question mark however as that's contemporary data and clearly not as densely vegetated and cultivated like further north. One of the problems i face is the lack of data for the 40ies regarding agriculture/land cover. I will ost two screenshots in two following posts and would like to have your opinion. I'm thinking of exchanging the light woods with rocky terrain in some places.

ORIGINAL: frankieITAEdit: A friend of mine possess a Olive plantation, olives are large and low-branched trees, packet tightly in order to save space, because the fruits are picked with nets stretched above the trees, that are shaken in order to make the mature fruits fall. I would hardly think a tank like the Sherman could even get inside that labirinth, not only because Olive trees are really hard to knock down but also because the branches are really low (even less than 2 meters) and they would ruin antennas, periscope, sights, etc. Visibility is limited because olive plantations tend to be put on hill slopes, I remember vaguely that's because of the certain kind of terrain needed for oil quality Olive trees.

Yes. But there are such and such plantations. I've seen some where a Sherman could have navigated into without problems and also such fields that fit more your description.

[Telumar]

Ok, screenshot nr. 1 - the La Sila mountains. Note thast it's not possible to mix forest with mountains. Which however would have only chrome effects.

[Telumar]

And a part of Calabria:

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Ah yes, and here is another problem in TOAW. This area has very bad floods sometimes in fall and winter. So if you make it arid there will be no rain in the game I think. Unless there is some way to make arid so there is seasonal heavy rain. So, average rain is not so much. But seasonal rain can be very heavy.

It's not so much about rain per se, but about rivers swelling etc. I could add marsh terrain to river courses further north on the map or make them superrivers. Battles in autumn will take place further north, so no need to worry about the south. The scenario will last from Sept 9th until October/November.

[Ruppich]

Mein Freund, wenn das Szenario fertig ist müssen wir mal ein Tänzchen wagen!
My friend, when this scenario is ready, we have to try a dance. [:D]

[FrankieITA]

I like both screens!
Too bad there's no way to add woods to mountain terrain, Sila looks like a bald man without his forest cover.
I see you tend to put croplands all along valleys and rivers, that looks really fine.
I'm not confident in the idea that there's been a visible change in the wood covering in Calabria between '40s and today. Wildfires are a real problem there, but apart from extraordinary events, I doubt they would model the landscape for more than 10-15 years after the fire.
I'm not sure what I'm saying, but I wonder if there's been conversion of woodland into coltivated lands in the area in the last 50 years: Ambiental laws are quite restrictive on the subject, expecially regarding hilly terrain;but apart from the law (wich we know is not really followed in remote and economically depressed areas of a country) I wonder if a farmer would extend his plantation in hilly and broken terrain. Also consider there's a chronical lack of water for crop irrigation in South Italy, and I don't think theirs irrigation sistem is that efficient to support cultivation extension. Really big conversions of wild terrain to cultivation in Italy is often linked to swamp bonification, like the Pontine(around Littoria AKA Latina) or other zones of the Padan Plain. Since all the good terrain is already occupied, if there's no bonification that dries up some swamps, new terrain is disposable only to particular plantations (wineyards, Olive, etc) that can stick to hilly terrain.
I really wonder if that zone's woods has ever changed in the last 50 years. National parks are of no interest here because they've been created in late Nineties.
My advice would be to stick to the material you are already using (so well so far), do some changes where you see better fit and don't think twice about terrain, we all know the problem here is TOAW limitations, not yours.

[ogar]

If you are still fussing with these regions, then I'd suggest swapping in some forest hexes here and there for moutains in the Sila region. Purely a visual suggestion, on my part, as you're going to have a lot more mountainous areas elsewhere on the map. Calabria looks fine to me - and I usually hate the look of crop-land.

Overall, these are up to your usual standards of excellence.

I agree with both FrankieITA's and Ruppich's conclusions.

I'll confess that the earlier discussion had me wandering out to the nearby orchards and vineyards (no olive groves, sorry !). Even at the end of winter, sight lines are constrained and polarized by the tree or vine rows; movement is channeled along the row/road between the crops. The vine frames and orchard equipment -- foggers, guide stakes, etc. -- just add to the clutter. But all that is from one person's view, looking at a swath about 80 acres (400m by 800m) -- Telumar is doing this at 2.5 km per hex.

By my calcs, that's about 1000 acres per hex ( ?400 ha. ) and that's a sizeable spread - even if it were all recently mowed. My guess is that the pic on page 1 showing the landscape running down to the sea is about 800m across by 2 - 3 km running down to the sea. About _one_ hex in my guess. And any designer has to make the best of all the variations evident even in that photo to make that _one_ hex represent the overall terrain -- AND look good on the screen.

So, looks great, and it matches what little I know about the landscape. Although I reserve the right to re-visit my 'restrictions to sight and movement in orchards' when you re-do this at 1 furlong (200 m) per hex. [:D]

(Edited to add the needed smiley for that last wise-crack.)

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: frankieITA
I like both screens!
Too bad there's no way to add woods to mountain terrain, Sila looks like a bald man without his forest cover.

[/quote]

Thanks. And yes, that's pity. Maybe i'll follow Ogar's advice and exchange some of the terrain with forests. Or i try modifying the map xml export.

ORIGINAL: frankieITA
My advice would be to stick to the material you are already using (so well so far), do some changes where you see better fit and don't think twice about terrain, we all know the problem here is TOAW limitations, not yours.

For Calabria i'll leave it as it is. But i've re-done the Salentino peninsula as a result of this discussion. Next area is the Puglian coastal plain further north (the area shown in the panoramic photos on page 1). More light woods instead of light cultivated terrain where olive groves are dominant. Excerpt (using a modified graphic for 'light cultivated' because, like Ogar, i don't like the look of the standard cropland):

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: ogar
and I usually hate the look of crop-land.

Maybe you like this more: https://www.dropbox.com/s/q4l8nwky1lqjc ... 20telu.zip

ORIGINAL: ogar
I'll confess that the earlier discussion had me wandering out to the nearby orchards and vineyards

Very good. Always going the extra 8 furlong. [:D]

**

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, gentlemen.

[cohimbra]

Hi Telumar, great work, only three little thing about your last posted image...I don'y know if you can change
the name on the map, however:
Penisola Salentino -> Penisola Salentina;
Nardo -> Nardò;
Salio -> I'm not pugliese, but I don't think that Salio exist (but maybe I'm wrong here).
Regards.

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

Hi Telumar, great work, only three little thing about your last posted image...I don'y know if you can change
the name on the map, however:
Penisola Salentino -> Penisola Salentina;

A, yes of course, La Penisola. Done.

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

Nardo -> Nardò;

Sorry, it's not possible to enter special characters in TOAW (which will change in the patch however).

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

Salio -> I'm not pugliese, but I don't think that Salio exist (but maybe I'm wrong here).

Regards.

You're right. It's Salice Salentino - i probably misread this somewhere.

Thanks for this.