Outdated website and page?

[DeZanic]

Well I guess it has its own little niche for hardcore fanatics. It does sound appealing to get it but on the other hand makes me wonder how a game that old is so unknown and has not even had any sequels yet.

The first time I saw the game I though it was something from the mid-90's because the graphics are obviously not state of the art but on the other hand such a game may not require good graphics. I guess a superb ai makes up for it?

Regarding the learning curve and the time you need to spend to play this confirms to me that the game really is made for hardcore fanatics of this genre because having like 4-5 hours per week to play games isnt really gonna help me, and I assume there is a lot of micromanagement to do?

Well I am pretty wealthy.. but still paying such a high price for this game doesnt sound right especially since Hearts of Iron 4 is under production and will most likely be released for roughly the same price or less than War in the Pacific.

The only positive thing is that it is different from other games. I don't know I gotta give it a thought.

[SigUp]

Yes, it is a niche game for wargamers. And as such the price is as it is. Simple mathematics, in the case of niche products the gain in customers won't make up the revenue loss due to the lower price. Therefore price remains high. And as people have said, you have to balance it with the playing time. Suppose you buy a shooter for 50, play it 10 hours. Then every hour cost 5. WITP is a game in which hundereds of hours can be spent over the lifetime, and this more than redeems the price. But of course you have to be committed to learning and playing it (which is the case for all wargames). If you don't think you have the interest or stamina to do it, better leave it aside and play a simplistic mass market game like Hearts of Iron. About the AI, the AI isn't bad, but in a game with such complexity it inevitably will pale against the human. So if you want to enjoy the full potential (and that's the case with any wargame) you need to play PBEM. I've bought the game during Christmas sale and it has brought me much fun even if it is only against the AI and I'm slowly working my way through it.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: DeZanic
The first time I saw the game I though it was something from the mid-90's because the graphics are obviously not state of the art but on the other hand such a game may not require good graphics.

Well, actually the games´ roots are in the mid 90´s, so pretty accurate assessment. [8D]

I guess a superb ai makes up for it?

No. [:D]



HOI4 will, like HOI3, HOI2, and HOI, be peanuts against this game. It is a completely different level of accuracy and detail.

But as you already seem to have guessed it is not for everybody. WitP AE is a niche product because of its´ steep learning curve, lots of micromanagement, and high complexity. Theres not so many people with the time and patience to master this game. Those of us who do have bought the best price per hours played ever. Those who did not usually lost interest fast.

If you haven´t already, check out the AAR section of the forums. It will give you a good overview on what to expect from this game.

[dr.hal]

ORIGINAL: DeZanic
how a game that old is so unknown and has not even had any sequels yet.

DeZanic, it would help if you delve into the background of the game. It has had MANY sequels. I've been playing a version of this game since the 1970s. It was originally a board game (I even have a Japanese variation of the game as a board game) and has gone through many metamorphoses. It has always gotten stronger, more detailed and a more accurate rendition of the trials facing the real players at a strategic level. This is not a tactical game with all the bells and whistles that a shoot'em up game would have. In truth to me, that's one of its strongest appeals. Additionally it IS up to date in that it is continually refined by Matrix AND others. The support is amazing! This game makes you THINK. If you play by "reaction" you will play badly. This is not for everyone, but it is the game for me. Hal

[Yaab]

Given the WITP:AE's complexity and level of detail, I would say this game is dirty cheap. How much is the Holy Grail of wargaming worth?

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: DeZanic

Well I guess it has its own little niche for hardcore fanatics. It does sound appealing to get it but on the other hand makes me wonder how a game that old is so unknown and has not even had any sequels yet.

This game is a sequel. Or more accurate the penultimate development of the game engine. The first game with this engine was Uncommon Valor which was only about the Solomons campaign in 1942-43. Then came War Plan Orange which was about a hypothetical war between the US and Japan in the late 1920s. Finally the original War in the Pacific covered the same area as this game. The first three games were developed by Gary Grisby's 2X3 Games.

Along game the group who developed AE. We were all players of the original WitP who wanted to make improvements. A deal was struck to get the source code from Gary Grisby in a kind of "here it is, knock yourself out" kind of thing (he and his company had no direct involvement in the AE development). The team went to work making improvements to the original WitP and AE was the result.

There have been no further developments because most of the people who worked so hard on AE had to get back to their lives, had other commitments crop up, etc. The history of this game is not that of a typical game.

The first time I saw the game I though it was something from the mid-90's because the graphics are obviously not state of the art but on the other hand such a game may not require good graphics. I guess a superb ai makes up for it?

The AI is decent for a game this size, and most people play against the AI, but the PBEM players will be the first to tell you that a live player is better. The roots of this game are in the 1990s.

A lot of games these days are very cinematic. They are like participating in a movie. This game is more like reading a book. You get things out of it that you aren't going to get from watching a movie. Things that don't translate to the visual medium, but are important none the less. I turn off most of the animations and such and read the reports in a file editor. You are playing the role of high level commander and you would be getting most of your information via written text anyway, so for me this adds to the experience.

Regarding the learning curve and the time you need to spend to play this confirms to me that the game really is made for hardcore fanatics of this genre because having like 4-5 hours per week to play games isnt really gonna help me, and I assume there is a lot of micromanagement to do?

If you want things to work right, there is some degree of micromanagement. One of the goals of the AE team was to offer more flexibility in areas that involve important micromanagement and try to streamline things in areas of less important micromanagement. I'm not sure how successful we were, but it is better than the original game. You will still find yourself dealing with a lot of merchant ships.

Well I am pretty wealthy.. but still paying such a high price for this game doesnt sound right especially since Hearts of Iron 4 is under production and will most likely be released for roughly the same price or less than War in the Pacific.

The only positive thing is that it is different from other games. I don't know I gotta give it a thought.

The game isn't for everyone, but it does have a fanatic following who are happy to help you through the learning curve. If you look around the forum, you will see many posts from new players asking newbie questions and getting polite and helpful answers.

Bill

[witpqs]

A tiny correction, the original War in the Pacific came before War Plan Orange.

[Terminus]

And War Plan Orange wasn't developed by 2by3.

[wdolson]

I stand corrected on both counts. In any case, WitP AE is the 4th game on this core engine. Though the AE engine is quite a bit improved over UV.

Bill

[Terminus]

Yep.

[Itdepends]

I find the game very enjoyable. I can easily spend a couple of hours on it after work each night. I play PBEM - the best form of AI you can get. Same opponent for 2-3 years now, same game. You need to enjoy immersing yourself in a journey.

[Lecivius]

If you like simplex strategy, FPS, Real Time helter skelter, or X-Box type games, this is not for you. 
 
If you like to think about things, truely work a strategy, and really like the details of that strategy, this may be for you.
 
Money wise will need to be answered by your needs.  HoI you can master in weeks.  This takes years.  If your in the crowd liking long term complex games, this game is by far the cheapest game per hour played you will ever find.  And if you do find one better, please post it here.  I would truly love to go look at it.
 

[DeZanic]

I have read review after review and compared and compared games of the year 2009. All the arguments can be found in other games that are of the same character (modability, heavy fan based support, patching etc). A serious difference is the price. If I would have bought the game today it would by far be the most expensive "old" game I have ever bought. It feels completely irresponsible.

Maybe the pricetag would be allright 14 years ago in the yaer 2000 but not today. Unfortunately I am not willing to pay such a high price but I am interested in getting informed when the pricetag looks less scary.

[Lecivius]

[font=calibri]Then you are condemned to mainstream games as already mentioned.  That’s ok, everyone has a reason for what they do.  Good luck, and let us know if you find something comparable.[/font]

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: DeZanic

I have read review after review and compared and compared games of the year 2009. All the arguments can be found in other games that are of the same character (modability, heavy fan based support, patching etc). A serious difference is the price. If I would have bought the game today it would by far be the most expensive "old" game I have ever bought. It feels completely irresponsible.

Maybe the pricetag would be allright 14 years ago in the yaer 2000 but not today. Unfortunately I am not willing to pay such a high price but I am interested in getting informed when the pricetag looks less scary.

If you think there's another game out there (especially mainstream) that's comparable to WITP you are seriously mistaken about the nature of the game. Just to make it clear, comparing WITP to HoI is like comparing connect four to chess in terms of complexity and strategic thought needed. And as for the price tag, I already explained it to you. There is no economic incentive for the publisher to reduce the price. A reduction would result in a net loss of profits, so why should they do it? You can't look at a niche product through a mainstream lens. The developer teams here are small, the publisher is comparatively small and they are in no position to decline on revenues. So just let go instead of bashing something you don't understand. This game's not for you and it's okay. For others who can get into the game it is money well invested. That said, you are probably six weeks too late. During the Christmas sale the price tag was around 50, as compared to close to 80.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

There is simply no other game out there that can model WW2 naval warfare and/ or the Pacific campaign

I have played HOI 2 (good game once modded) and HOI 3 (which I hated since the 1st day).
Land warfare is adequate, but the naval model in all Paradox games, is very weak. Ships with hit points, no logistic model, submarines obliterating naval fleets, and how easy was to simply invade Japan directly from the USA (no leapfrog, no need to do anything other than load division into "transports").

I remember quite fondly reading in Paradox HOI3 forum about the German AI succesfully invading Pearl Harbor.

[JocMeister]

I find it very funny how people complain about the price of things in general and then go off and blow thrice the money on a single bar night without a complaint...I know I have.

Buying the latest Thief game on Steam would set you back 45 Euros and give you what? 20 hours of play?
Buying the latest Assassins Creed game on Steam would set you back 50 Euros and give you what? 15-25 hours of play?
Buying AE will set you back 60 Euros and give you what? A couple of thousand hours of play...

You won´t find any game with more value per money. I seriously doubt you understand the depth of this game. While you can master HoI in a couple of hours I have played this game for years (I think 7 or 8) and I still learn new stuff I didn´t know each week. And every time I pick up another game I play it for a couple of hours before going "meh" and then fire up AE again. I played the AI for the first 5 or 6 years(!) before I felt the game starting to go "stale". I then started playing my first PBEM game and I seriously doubt I will ever stop playing it.

I would pay ten times the price and still think this was the best deal I have ever made.

[Yaab]

I have read review after review and compared and compared games of the year 2009. All the arguments can be found in other games that are of the same character (modability, heavy fan based support, patching etc). A serious difference is the price. If I would have bought the game today it would by far be the most expensive "old" game I have ever bought. It feels completely irresponsible.

Maybe the pricetag would be allright 14 years ago in the yaer 2000 but not today. Unfortunately I am not willing to pay such a high price but I am interested in getting informed when the pricetag looks less scary.

DeZanic, I do believe there are other games published in 2009 that have great modability, heavy fan based support and patching. The only difference between them and WITP:AE would be game's complexity and the WITP:AE's price reflects that. The game is complex, huge and has an insane amount of detail, which is further augmented by mods. In the beginning I thought the game was unplayable (how do you keep track of all those ships, units, are groups?) and that the people who created it were out of their mind (one day turns? several reports generated each day? thousands of named pilots with dozens of individual stats?). If you persevere and survive the initial shock, the game becomes an addiction.

Also, the game teaches you a lot about WWII even if you don't play the game much. My knowledge of geography, conflict history, ship hulls (hmm, AMC and AMc - what is the difference?), aircraft, devices and units' TOE has been augmented tremendously. The game gives you a lot of insight into the front situation in China, which is a neglected front in other Pacific games. Basically, WITP:AE feels like a comprehensive study of WWII history.

[DeZanic]

Damn it! Allright I may afterall decide to buy it. Crap I hate so much with your good arguments!!!

[cohimbra]

ORIGINAL: DeZanic

Damn it! Allright I may afterall decide to buy it. Crap I hate so much with your good arguments!!!

Ahi ahi ahi...I bought WitPAE 3 years ago, and I don't know nothing about the Pacific theatre...now I play ONLY WitPAE! I'm lost! Don't buy it! Save your soul! Go away!