ASW combat

[Finarfïn]

Hello,

I have missed a thing or it's a bug but I have 2 naval combats with subs surprising CW CP where i can't use surprise points to increase sub's result (but i can decrease results against them).

I haven't got a save but i think it can be easily reproductible.

Fin

[markb50k]

Are there escorts? This may be just the phase where they preemptively attack the subs. Only they shoot in this phase so your only logical use of surprise points at that point is to lower their results

Once you get past that you'll be able to raise your results

My theory

[Centuur]

During submarine combat, the enemy first shoots at the subs (so you first have to decide if you want to reduce the effectiveness of the escorts, using surprise points). After losses are taken by the SUB's, you should be able to use remaining surprise points to increase losses on the convoys.

So that comes later...

[Finarfïn]

hello,

so i clearly missed something because i can't find any reference in my RAC book to a prefire (except for CoiF which is not active).
In the example given with sub combat(11.5.10) the SUB attacks with there full power even with 1D 3A from the escort.
But i apologize i'm not good at reading/writing in english so i can be wrong.

Fin

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

During submarine combat, the enemy first shoots at the subs (so you first have to decide if you want to reduce the effectiveness of the escorts, using surprise points). After losses are taken by the SUB's, you should be able to use remaining surprise points to increase losses on the convoys.

So that comes later...

I know you are thinking about ASW units not ASW factors.

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
11.5.10 Submarine combat
In a submarine combat, each side’s SUBs (not any other units) will fight the opposing side’s included non-SUB units.

Example: It is fine weather in 1942 and Heinz has gained 10 surprise points in a naval combat. He has spent 4 of them to choose a submarine combat. He has 2 SUBs included, totaling 8 attack factors.

Jay has 10 convoy points, an SCS and a 2 air-to-sea factor NAV included. Jay attacks with his 6 ASW factors (2 for the SCS, 2 for the NAV and 2 for the convoys because it is 1942) against 2 enemy “ships”. He gets 1 ‘D’ result and 3 ‘A’ results. Heinz rolls against his SUBs’ defence factors to determine the outcome.

Then he attacks the convoys with 8 attack factors against 2 ships (remember, the escorts don’t count). He gets 2 ‘D’ and 3 ‘A’ results.

Jay rolls a 5 for the first damage die against a convoy. One of the convoys is damaged. Heinz spends 3 surprise points to roll the second damage die against the same convoy. Jay rolls a 3, sinking it.

Heinz spends his last 3 surprise points to inflict the first ‘A’ result on the SCS. Jay rolls against the SCS unit’s defence factors to see if it suffers the result. The second ‘A’ result is applied successfully against the remaining convoy.

The last ‘A’ result cannot be applied because there are no convoys that can suffer further results and Heinz has run out of surprise points.

No German SUB has 8 attack factors.

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
ASW units in naval combat
ASW units have a special pre-fire attack against included enemy SUBs (only) in each surface or submarine round of naval combat as follows.

Total the attack factors of all included ASW units. Add in all included ASW air-to-sea factors (modified by weather ~ see 8.2.3) on that side as well. All other included units on that side are ignored for the pre-fire attack.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Finarfïn

Hello,

I have missed a thing or it's a bug but I have 2 naval combats with subs surprising CW CP where i can't use surprise points to increase sub's result (but i can decrease results against them).

I haven't got a save but i think it can be easily reproductible.

Fin

There are many buttons on the Spend Surprise Points form. Each button is for one of the ways you can spend your points.

However, the buttons are not all enabled at the start of a naval combat (or port attack). Instead the program only enables those buttons for the current subphase. And even then, only if you have enough surprise points available.

So, at the start of the air-to-air combat subphase, the buttons for changing the odds for air-to-air combat are enabled. Similarly for the anti-air combat subphase. For the naval combat itself, usually only one button is enabled - the one for the current subphase. That seems to be the case that you are describing.

[Finarfïn]

Hello,

thanks to take your time to answer .

I agree but as far as i understand RAC, but i can be wrong of course, Sub shot and ASW shot are made in the same time (like surface combat) so options given to this two kinds of combat have to be the same.

Of course IF CoiF is in use things are differents and then an ASW prefire occur just by ASW units.
But when you choose optional rule for me Coif is not possible so what?

For Extraneous in the example german player have 2 SUB .

Fin

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

Spending surprise points

4pts Avoid combat
4pts Choose combat type

3pts Select enemy target (per target)

2pts Increase your column on naval combat chart (per column)
2pts Decrease opponent’s column (per column)
2pts Increase your air-to-air combat value (per point)
2pts Decrease opponent’s air to air combat value (per point)
2pts Increase your anti-aircraft fire (per column)
2pts Decrease opponent’s anti-aircraft fire (per column)

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
11.5.10 Submarine combat

The non-SUB side uses these factors to attack the SUBs. You do this in the same way as a surface naval combat except that you use the ASW row of the naval combat chart and only count the SUBs as targets.

The SUBs also attack in the same way as a surface naval combat except that they use the SUB row of the naval combat chart and only the convoy points count as ships (1 ship per 5 convoy points).

It sounds like the game is not allowing an increase to the SUB row of the naval combat chart.

Could it be because the rule reads "Increase your column on naval combat chart" and "Decrease opponent’s column"?

[paulderynck]

In which row do you increase or decrease the columns?

[Finarfïn]

Hello,

I'm sorry i'm not good in english so maybe i don't understand in the right way.

When i have to manage a suface naval combat i can, if i have enought surprise point choose to increase my result or decrease opponent result, even a mix between both is possible with enough SP.

As far as i understand RAC, Sub combat have to be resolved the same way. Separate ASW>SUB and then SUB>CP seems to be part of CoiF option.
But once again i can be wrong.

Also i know this is only a minor trouble (i'm not even sure it is a bug or a "bad" coding of the RAC), i understand some other majors trouble have to be corrected before this will be checked but i prefere to report things i feel strange or broken.

Fin

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Finarfïn

Hello,

I'm sorry i'm not good in english so maybe i don't understand in the right way.

1. When i have to manage a suface naval combat i can, if i have enought surprise point choose to increase my result or decrease opponent result, even a mix between both is possible with enough SP.

2. As far as i understand RAC, Sub combat have to be resolved the same way. Separate ASW>SUB and then SUB>CP seems to be part of CoiF option.
But once again i can be wrong.

Also i know this is only a minor trouble (i'm not even sure it is a bug or a "bad" coding of the RAC), i understand some other majors trouble have to be corrected before this will be checked but i prefere to report things i feel strange or broken.

Fin

1. Correct.

2. Correct submarine combat and surface combat should be resolved the same way.


paulderynck wants to know which row do you click on to increase your results or decrease your opponent results.

[Finarfïn]

Ah ok:),

joyce of translating things...

I'm at work i'll sent screenshots in the evening (after my wife let me play ;p).

Fin

[paulderynck]

Are you the phasing player or the non-phasing? The reason I ask is that MWiF follows the sequence of play and if you intercepted or searched during the opponents move, then your losses come first, but if it was your move then the opponent's losses come first.

So in the first case you would be able to first affect the column used against you and then later be able to affect the column against the opponent. This order is reversed for the second case.

Uploading a zip of the game save to this thread would be helpful.

[Finarfïn]

I'll post a saved game with screenshots this evening.

Now i'm at my office, if i begin to play when i'm supposed to work my wife won't
trust me when i will tell her that my job is hard [;)].

Fin

[Finarfïn]

Hello,

here a SUB combat in Italian coast (dice choosen for this to happen)

[Finarfïn]

As you can see only decrease ennemy's.. is available, as someone previously said increase your naval... is available after your results are implemented.

But as i see it now, the values are not changed. Despite SUB have to manage results against them before to make their shots they strike at full power (for exemple even if they suffer an abort they return fire with full power on CP). But it's strange as surface combat have a different way to manage (you can increase or decrease the same step or sub step).

So i don't think it's a bug but more a missunderstanding (once again from me maybe) or something else, like something for a future implementation of Coif i don't known.
I understand whatever this is a bug or not it's not a P1.

I post here the saved game

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Finarfïn

As you can see only decrease ennemy's.. is available, as someone previously said increase your naval... is available after your results are implemented.

But as i see it now, the values are not changed. Despite SUB have to manage results against them before to make their shots they strike at full power (for exemple even if they suffer an abort they return fire with full power on CP). But it's strange as surface combat have a different way to manage (you can increase or decrease the same step or sub step).

So i don't think it's a bug but more a missunderstanding (once again from me maybe) or something else, like something for a future implementation of Coif i don't known.
I understand whatever this is a bug or not it's not a P1.

I post here the saved game

I think this is done to make sure that if the CoiF rules are coded, the naval combat sequence itself doesn't have to be changed...

[Dabrion]

I think this is because increasing your column would be a noop. The D already sinks the lone CP. Further damage does not translate to the escorts on sub attack.

This would be a greedy solution and kind of does take into account that increasing the column makes sense if you sink all CP and have enough enough surprise points to also pick a target after the increase. Then the column increase could net you a better result on the selected target.

[Finarfïn]

I you look to the screenshot you see that allied have enough SP to increase and select a target if they want to.
But it's just an example, i have another where germans sub can hit a lot more CW's CP.

By the way, as i have said above things seem to work properly as SUB attacks are made with full strengh (no prefire)
only have to think if you want to keep SP for next step or not.

Fin

[Dabrion]

Alright, you mean what Paul explained? Didn't understand that..