Mutual Peace? Japan and USSR

[Dabrion]

Bo, why dont you lock yourself in that warm fuzzy place that is the beta-forum. You can exchange apologies with the others, test the new builds, and we can move on here without your moral lessons and pseudo-privilege ransoming. Btw.. talking bullshit all the time is my privilege! Stop at once!!

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

Bo, why dont you lock yourself in that warm fuzzy place that is the beta-forum. You can exchange apologies with the others, test the new builds, and we can move on here without your moral lessons and pseudo-privilege ransoming. Btw.. talking bullshit all the time is my privilege! Stop at once!!

The post was not addressed to you it was directed at Zartacla mind your own business.

Bo

[AxelNL]

when you are all done steaming, I am interested in how the new release behaves for you all.

[Auchinleck]

Sounds like there is an expansion in the works: Forum in Flames. [:D]

[Mike Parker]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

Have to agree with Zartacla here and normally I am one to go the other way on such things with MWIF. This is a broken feature of the game. Its not just unimplimented code its somethign that is documented as coded and its not. It is a minor issue, but in some games I think it could be a very major concern... i.e. when war breaks out there.

I'm not about to beat my chest and rend my clothes and pour ashes on my head but it is broken, any other interpretation is just erroneous.

warspite1

Gents, to be fair to Paulderynck I do not think he was trying to split hairs or be clever over language.

My take on it is that it is important we use the right terminology given the mess that things are in at the moment. Broken suggests its been coded and doesn't work, whereas uncoded is just that.

Just my 2 cents - we are all on the same side here. Frustrated, annoyed and desperate for the game to work.

I agree no need to go nuts over it. Just to me if I was classifying this as Broken or Not Yet implimented I would say Broken. But that is because I have been doing Q&A for code for the better part of 15 years. Broken doesn't always mean that coded things don't work right, it could mean that a feature needed is not yet coded, the option is broken. It needs to get looked at and fixed when Steve has time... also as a Q&A guy I think most folks here do not appreciate (as in understand) the great job being done with the weekly patches. Its not a simple thing to fix some things that seem simple. This fix should be pretty easy I would think, but there are in my mind many things above it on the priority list.

In any case I still say broken, but its not meant to be inflammatory or accusatory just a better classification of this particular problem.

[joshuamnave]

ORIGINAL: bo


I wanted to but I cant let this go, you are one of the most informed knowledgeable posters here Zartaclca,

No, I'm really not but thanks. I'm just one of the most prolific. I work at home and am minimally employed, so I have a lot of time on my hands. But I know far less about the game, both in terms of rules and strategy, than most of the regular posters here.

I trully respecte your opinion and whether you believe this or not I am mortified when something goes wrong, I did not hesitate when I saw your tech post to inform Steve what you had put in your post to do with the supply popups, It could have gone many more hours before Steve saw it. It is not my job nor my duty to report anything to Steve from the main forums.

I did it out of concern for the game and to try and solve a respected posters question which I did and Steve acknowleged the problem and as he said ASAP. And he is, you will have a hot patch shortly.

And I'm glad it was hotfixed so quickly. But you did it out of concern for the game, not for me. At least, I hope that's why you did it. If bugs are prioritized or not based on what the beta testers think about the person who reports the bug on a personal level, then we have much bigger issues at stake. And since the person who maintains the list of bugs so clearly holds me (and almost anyone that complains about problems in the game) in complete contempt, we have an even bigger problem.

With that said there is no reason to insult a respected beta tester like paul.

Respected by whom? He lost mine a while ago. He has a long history of being nothing but condescending, rude, insulting, disrespectful toward me and many others on the boards. This has been going on almost since I started posting here. I'm tired of his patronizing attitude. I'm tired of him implying that any problem encountered in the game is because I (or whomever the original poster is in a given thread) am just too stupid to get it right. If calling him out on it means you don't respect me anymore then so be it. This isn't about the beta testers, it's not about Steve, it's about Paul being rude to me and to others.

If we cant act civil to each other to get this wonderful game fixed then this game aint worth it, shove it.

Funny, that's how I feel every time I read one of Paul's responses to anyone's questions.

And if it goes on I will ask all the beta testers to not answer anymore questions legitmate or not [all questions are legitmate] because I will not take that kind of insult from anyone. You can sit there and stew over your questions. Whether they will listen to me or not I do not know, or if it is even legal with my NDA but right now I dont care what anyone thinks including Matrix. I am really surprised at you Zartacla that horsemanure was not neccessary. It really did not help things.

You're surprised that I finally responded to a pattern of insulting and condescending behavior from one person? Then you really don't know me at all. Paul doesn't answer questions, legitimate or others. He just tells people they are wrong, or stupid, or comparable to Homer Simpson dumping toxic waste in the water. He tells us that it's our fault the game isn't working right, or that we should just RTFM, and then tells us that he's the keeper of the bug list and we should just trust him to know what's best. He might have excellent organization skills and be the perfect person to maintain a bug list - I have no way of knowing that. But he has terrible personal skills and degrades my trust in the process with nearly every post he makes. As for telling the beta testers not to answer anyone's questions - do what you gotta do. Just make sure you tell him first. We would all be better off then.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

Have to agree with Zartacla here and normally I am one to go the other way on such things with MWIF. This is a broken feature of the game. Its not just unimplimented code its somethign that is documented as coded and its not. It is a minor issue, but in some games I think it could be a very major concern... i.e. when war breaks out there.

I'm not about to beat my chest and rend my clothes and pour ashes on my head but it is broken, any other interpretation is just erroneous.

warspite1

Gents, to be fair to Paulderynck I do not think he was trying to split hairs or be clever over language.

My take on it is that it is important we use the right terminology given the mess that things are in at the moment. Broken suggests its been coded and doesn't work, whereas uncoded is just that.

Just my 2 cents - we are all on the same side here. Frustrated, annoyed and desperate for the game to work.

I agree no need to go nuts over it. Just to me if I was classifying this as Broken or Not Yet implimented I would say Broken. But that is because I have been doing Q&A for code for the better part of 15 years. Broken doesn't always mean that coded things don't work right, it could mean that a feature needed is not yet coded, the option is broken. It needs to get looked at and fixed when Steve has time... also as a Q&A guy I think most folks here do not appreciate (as in understand) the great job being done with the weekly patches. Its not a simple thing to fix some things that seem simple. This fix should be pretty easy I would think, but there are in my mind many things above it on the priority list.

In any case I still say broken, but its not meant to be inflammatory or accusatory just a better classification of this particular problem.

You said nothing wrong Mike, you are just stating some facts that you see that are not working right and I for one appreciate your input, and when it is done in a firm and not a derogatory phrase it helps beta testers mentally to want to help someone clear something up quickly if possible, without any animosty of any kind.

Bo

[bo]

Zartacla

I have to admit I was not following the discussions between you and Paul lately and I had no idea what was going on, in fact after I sent your post last night to Steve I happened to see the post on Mutual Peace, my knowledge of the game is very limited as I never saw the game until I became a beta tester 2 years ago so I tend to stay away from posts that I cannot contribute to and that is one of them.

Ask me something about Guadalcanal I might be all right. [:(]

I reacted poorly about asking beta people not to answer questions on the main forums anger spoke first not common sense as I would have no right to ask that of my peers, they might agree with me in general but they would do what they thought was right not what I thought was right.

Paul needs no defending by me he is very capable of handling his own posts. In the several years I have known Paul he has been extremely helpful to me about rules and such. Paul is a person who does make statements in one line or less while I need two paragraphs to say the same thing. Which might make him a shade more terse or more to the point than I am capable of.

Yes I went to Steve for the betterment of the game about those popups, of course so would you if you were me. It just happened to be you that noticed the screw up. I also happen to like the way you find things so they can be corrected. Not catering to you or anybody else just a fact.

Bo

[joshuamnave]

ORIGINAL: bo


Ask me something about Guadalcanal I might be all right. [:(]

Well then we may be talking soon. I am absolutely a mess when it comes to the pacific war. I have no idea what I'm doing strategy wise and I flounder miserably when I get to that point in a global war game. I have trouble wrapping my head around strategic situations that are that fluid. The war in the west is much more linear.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

ORIGINAL: bo


Ask me something about Guadalcanal I might be all right. [:(]

Well then we may be talking soon. I am absolutely a mess when it comes to the pacific war. I have no idea what I'm doing strategy wise and I flounder miserably when I get to that point in a global war game. I have trouble wrapping my head around strategic situations that are that fluid. The war in the west is much more linear.

I too like the war in the west for the same reason, I find it easier on my non military non strategic mind. But I am tired of the endless attacks against the immence Russian lanscape, computer game after computer game, Strategic Command, 3rd Reich, War in the East on and on, even god forbid Panzer corp.

The war in the Pacific is much more fluid, Guadalcanal is a very simplified part of that war. When Steve releases Day of Infamy [:(] hopefully soon you can concentrate on the full Pacific war. Global War hmmm can it be finished by several players in a lifetime[;)]
I really like WITP at first but after a while waiting for the computer to finish its move
after 2 days I got tired of it and it sits on a shelf with all of my old war games that I consider unplayable, or no replay value.

Outside of the programming problems we are having, there is something else I have noticed about MWIF. Outside of the board game owners of WIF and the grognards here this game is like no other that they have played. The word complexity should have warned potential buyers. Pleae correct me if I am wrong but I personally have never seen in war computer game complexity statement the words "Advance -Expert" That alone warns players this game is not for everyone, which also could be leading to some problems here. [Misunderstanding the complicated rules.]

I still play COD2 at least a half an hour a day just to relieve the stress of testing MWIF,[:D] the problem is I come away more frustrated than when I went in, when you go up against a 12 year old who can do back flips [and at the same jump the tallest buildings run faster than a locomotive oops wrong story] leap sideways and shoot you in the eye from 100 yards away the stress stays.

Bo

[joshuamnave]

Honestly, I don't think it's all that complex. I could teach someone the base rules in about twenty minutes and get them started playing. Most of the complexity lies in about 10% of the rules/situations, and the interaction between semi-conflicting rules. A lot of the game (but not the interface) is fairly intuitive. Things work in ways that make sense to anyone that has played wargames and/or has a basic understanding of WW2 history. A lot of the confusion comes from areas where WiF abstracts things in ways that are mechanically non intuitive, but produce results that make sense. People used to bandy about the term "WIF zen" to describe it.

For example, action limits don't really make sense from a realism standpoint. My air force is flying so my navy is grounded? That's illogical. But the action limit system does a good job of forcing players to make the difficult (and interesting) decisions that end up leading to realistic results. WIF zen.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

Bo, why dont you lock yourself in that warm fuzzy place that is the beta-forum. You can exchange apologies with the others, test the new builds, and we can move on here without your moral lessons and pseudo-privilege ransoming. Btw.. talking bullshit all the time is my privilege! Stop at once!!

As always appreciate your comments.

Bo

[Mike Parker]

So I almost hate to ask this... but... is there a work around for this? Is there any way currently to bring about peace between Japan and the USSR in this situation. I know a gentleman's agreement to not attack could be made, and the Japanese player could choose a combined every turn if not otherwise at war to simulate the peace, but I was wondering is there some control I don't know about where you can declare peace and have it reflected in game currently?

[joshuamnave]

nope

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

nope

There is the perfect answer it cannot be construed in any other way and cannot cause post wars like last night [:D] Good answer Zar.

Bo

[brian brian]

I would say this rule is most important in a true multi-player game (which is a ways off anyway). There, this is important for players attempting to win a true individual victory, as the game is designed. Not all players will play that way though.

In a 2 player game, the players should easily enough be able to agree to simulate the results of this rule, since there won't be any "deal" made, which is pointless in a 2 player game.

In a solitaire game of WiF, one of the more challenging aspects is selecting Japan<>USSR policy. About the best you can do is to pick a strategy for each side in advance, and mash them together to see what happens. Or, set up a simple table of options for each and pick one randomly with a 6 sided dice or something.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

ORIGINAL: bo


I wanted to but I cant let this go, you are one of the most informed knowledgeable posters here Zartaclca,

No, I'm really not but thanks. I'm just one of the most prolific. I work at home and am minimally employed, so I have a lot of time on my hands. But I know far less about the game, both in terms of rules and strategy, than most of the regular posters here.

I trully respecte your opinion and whether you believe this or not I am mortified when something goes wrong, I did not hesitate when I saw your tech post to inform Steve what you had put in your post to do with the supply popups, It could have gone many more hours before Steve saw it. It is not my job nor my duty to report anything to Steve from the main forums.

I did it out of concern for the game and to try and solve a respected posters question which I did and Steve acknowleged the problem and as he said ASAP. And he is, you will have a hot patch shortly.

And I'm glad it was hotfixed so quickly. But you did it out of concern for the game, not for me. At least, I hope that's why you did it. If bugs are prioritized or not based on what the beta testers think about the person who reports the bug on a personal level, then we have much bigger issues at stake. And since the person who maintains the list of bugs so clearly holds me (and almost anyone that complains about problems in the game) in complete contempt, we have an even bigger problem.

With that said there is no reason to insult a respected beta tester like paul.

Respected by whom? He lost mine a while ago. He has a long history of being nothing but condescending, rude, insulting, disrespectful toward me and many others on the boards. This has been going on almost since I started posting here. I'm tired of his patronizing attitude. I'm tired of him implying that any problem encountered in the game is because I (or whomever the original poster is in a given thread) am just too stupid to get it right. If calling him out on it means you don't respect me anymore then so be it. This isn't about the beta testers, it's not about Steve, it's about Paul being rude to me and to others.

If we cant act civil to each other to get this wonderful game fixed then this game aint worth it, shove it.

Funny, that's how I feel every time I read one of Paul's responses to anyone's questions.

And if it goes on I will ask all the beta testers to not answer anymore questions legitmate or not [all questions are legitmate] because I will not take that kind of insult from anyone. You can sit there and stew over your questions. Whether they will listen to me or not I do not know, or if it is even legal with my NDA but right now I dont care what anyone thinks including Matrix. I am really surprised at you Zartacla that horsemanure was not neccessary. It really did not help things.

You're surprised that I finally responded to a pattern of insulting and condescending behavior from one person? Then you really don't know me at all. Paul doesn't answer questions, legitimate or others. He just tells people they are wrong, or stupid, or comparable to Homer Simpson dumping toxic waste in the water. He tells us that it's our fault the game isn't working right, or that we should just RTFM, and then tells us that he's the keeper of the bug list and we should just trust him to know what's best. He might have excellent organization skills and be the perfect person to maintain a bug list - I have no way of knowing that. But he has terrible personal skills and degrades my trust in the process with nearly every post he makes. As for telling the beta testers not to answer anyone's questions - do what you gotta do. Just make sure you tell him first. We would all be better off then.

Zartacla,

The “apologist” comment caused me to lose my temper. I regret that I did.

As far as you being insulting, people can read your posts here and in other threads and decide for themselves.

Likewise for me being patronizing, they have their choice of literally hundreds of posts since November 7, in which I answered questions about the game, its configuration, the rules, the user interface and reported bugs/non-bugs. When responding to a first-time poster, a person does not necessarily know their level of experience with WiF so I thought it better to assume they were new to the game. I can see how that might come across.

The Homer reference was an attempt at humor. I was never into the Simpsons, but did remember that episode, thought it was quite funny, and would make a humorous parable. Written communication is far from perfect compared to face-to-face, as it lacks two of three important components: inflection and expression.

What is really mysterious is why you would assume a total stranger would show such a lack of integrity as to filter a bug list on the basis of personal enmity? The last spreadsheet I sent Steve prior to going on vacation on Feb 11, had 15 issues on it from you. When I “un-volunteered” for the job yesterday, I sent Steve links to 13 threads in Tech Support that I had viewed while away and had planned to add to the spreadsheet. At least 3 of them were yours.

[Dabrion]

Perhaps that will bring Steve to the point to use a proper tool instead of a slave managing a list.. a webbased tool perhaps so people can participate..

[Orm]

I do not care for you using the word slave in this way. I suppose you didn't really mean it or that I am misunderstanding something. [:(]

[joshuamnave]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

What is really mysterious is why you would assume a total stranger would show such a lack of integrity as to filter a bug list on the basis of personal enmity? The last spreadsheet I sent Steve prior to going on vacation on Feb 11, had 15 issues on it from you. When I “un-volunteered” for the job yesterday, I sent Steve links to 13 threads in Tech Support that I had viewed while away and had planned to add to the spreadsheet. At least 3 of them were yours.

I wouldn't. And that was in response to what Bo said, not to you. You quoted his comment and my response to his comment, so I'm not sure why you think that was directed to you.

Rather than keep a flame war going, I'll refrain from responding to the rest of your post.