Russia! Why not? (Morvael welcome)

[M60A3TTS]

No, but that wasn't what was being discussed.

[morvael]

First of all holds are also wins. Second - a small core of guards units can be formed because of blizzard (with mild blizzard surely less, but I was playing at a time when this wasn't an option). I remember having just one guards rifle and one guards cavalry division before the blizzard. I can get numbers from other periods of time by checking saves, I have them all. My failure in the guards department is measured by the fact that it's April '44 and I have yet not a single Guards Army... It's much harder to get these, the number of required wins is insane.

[M60A3TTS]

What's the win-loss tally of 1st, 2nd and 3rd Tank Armies? You appeared to be over the limit a while ago to convert to guards.

And how many artillery divisions do you have?

[morvael]

My best armies are close to the 75 trigger limit, but are not yet there. Barely crossing it gives a very small chance to pass the random test (75+random(75)) and convert. Corps units got to guards status fast because of the support unit bug giving them double wins (at least one support unit bug that was working for the player, rather than against the player like the leader or supply or truck bugs). Armies lag behind. I will provide hard numbers when I get home.

I have already stated that I have very little in terms of arty divs: just two breakthrough and two rocket and use them on the big cities. I'm close to changing my opinion about them (I need to drain German MP fast, so I need to cause more damage, as I can't outmaneuver them and get deep penetrations, it's grind all the time), but I wanted to clear corps and support units mess first. I'm in the process of disbanding tank regiments (not enough T-34/85 to fill them all and all the corps) and light SU regiments (due to free command capacity I want to switch to light SU brigades - 1 per army instead 3-4 regiments - this will help with the truck situation as well, while still giving me a chance to utilize the 120+ SU-76M weekly production).

[morvael]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

What's the win-loss tally of 1st, 2nd and 3rd Tank Armies? You appeared to be over the limit a while ago to convert to guards.

Because a picture is worth a thousand words:

[morvael]

1st Tank Army unfrozen turn 63
2nd Tank Army unfrozen turn 66
3rd Tank Army unfrozen turn 67
4th Tank Army unfrozen turn 103
5th Tank Army unfrozen turn 120
6th Tank Army unfrozen turn 121

[morvael]

On turn 148 1st Tank Army is at 76/21, 2nd at 52/8, 3rd at 49/12, 4th at 31/3, 5th at 7/2, 6th at 14/0.

[GamesaurusRex]

Morvael:
The only point of my comment is that under the current patches, the road to Guard Status during 41-42 is very steep indeed. Don't allow earlier patch bug experiences to cloud your opinion.

This comment is with respect to the period of 41-42-early43... I have not yet progressed past summer of 43, so I have no opinion about that period yet.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

Morvael:
The only point of my comment is that under the current patches, the road to Guard Status during 41-42 is very steep indeed. Don't allow earlier patch bug experiences to cloud your opinion.

This comment is with respect to the period of 41-42-early43... I have not yet progressed past summer of 43, so I have no opinion about that period yet.

Hmmm... I am in late February 42 right now, playing with the latest patch from the beginning, and IMHO getting guards status is roughly the same as in all my previous games. To me the rate of Guards conversions seems pretty reasonable.

[morvael]

It was easier to farm wins with stronger blizzard and double wins if you had support units attached (applies only to corps though). Must be harder now, but how much I don't know. Perhaps this rewards aggressive players using the 1:1-2:1 rule.

[Tarhunnas]

I was referring to divisions, though I do have a number of Guards Cavalry Corps, despite the mild blizzard.

[randallw]

Looking at that recent OOB the Red Army is going to get a lot of T-34s splattered in trying to get that German AFV pool down from 7K.

[morvael]

Oh yes, with the recent fixes it's hell for the Soviet tankers. My personal record (excluding the June/July '41 turns) starts at 1338 AFVs lost between 16th and 22nd March 1944.

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: morvael

My best armies are close to the 75 trigger limit, but are not yet there. Barely crossing it gives a very small chance to pass the random test (75+random(75)) and convert. Corps units got to guards status fast because of the support unit bug giving them double wins (at least one support unit bug that was working for the player, rather than against the player like the leader or supply or truck bugs). Armies lag behind. I will provide hard numbers when I get home.

I have already stated that I have very little in terms of arty divs: just two breakthrough and two rocket and use them on the big cities. I'm close to changing my opinion about them (I need to drain German MP fast, so I need to cause more damage, as I can't outmaneuver them and get deep penetrations, it's grind all the time), but I wanted to clear corps and support units mess first. I'm in the process of disbanding tank regiments (not enough T-34/85 to fill them all and all the corps) and light SU regiments (due to free command capacity I want to switch to light SU brigades - 1 per army instead 3-4 regiments - this will help with the truck situation as well, while still giving me a chance to utilize the 120+ SU-76M weekly production).

I just want to ask Morvael to reread his own statement concerning how he acquired the Guards Status units he did in this AAR and reconsider this in light of the fact that he has fixed the highlighted bug in recent patches... and to consider what that means with regard to the rate of Russian buildup of Guards units in competent human vs competent human games now that the bug is fixed. My conclusion and experience so far with patch .11 on a PBEM game against a good German opponent is that Guards Status is impossible to "farm" in 41-42 and very difficult in 43. Don't count on achieving many Guards units in any game against an opponent on the German side that understands this part of the game mechanics.

If the buildup of Guards Status is necessary for the Russian to build sufficient CV to push back against the German fortified positions in the latter half of the game, then the "fixing" of this "bug" has severely changed the balance of the game in favor of the German side. My prediction is that you will see many fewer Guard Status units in current games than in the past. They will develop much slower at the very least.

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: morvael

It was easier to farm wins with stronger blizzard and double wins if you had support units attached (applies only to corps though). Must be harder now, but how much I don't know. Perhaps this rewards aggressive players using the 1:1-2:1 rule.

No... all it does is reward German players who simply thwart the development of Russian Guards Status units by using the "flipped hex" mechanism to it's fullest during 41-42 (when Russian morale is so low they can't do anything) and by refusing to leave German troops in overly extended and exposed positions at the end of each turn in 43.

[morvael]

Turn 137

Poor battleplans cause 50% losses to Rotmistrov's elite 1st Tank Army, which tried to break through the positions of German 14th Infantry Division. It turned out that the division could count on 1st, 18th and 22nd Panzer Divisions. Similar massacre happened in the air, when the VVS tried to bomb enemy airfields, and lack of coordination and bad weather resulted in a bomber run without fighter escort. 48 bombers were lost over Piryatin and 34 over Novoukrainka. However this were only minor incidents and overall, the Wehrmach was not able to stem Soviet advance.

[morvael]

Another rail bridge over Dnepr was captured in Kremenchug by the forces of the Belorussian Front.

[morvael]

A plan is made for a raid towards Kiev over the open plains east of the city and 3 Tank Armies returning from Finland unload south of Novgorod Seversky.

[morvael]

Konev pushes west, but the advance slows down because of difficult terrain and delays on the flanks. Orsha is captured.

[morvael]

Latvian and Estonian border is reached. Several Panzer Divisions are present in the area causing the advancing forces to take ground only very slowly.