Clarification about Vichy

[joshuamnave]

While Vichy France is neutral and not hostile to anyone, can an active allied power declare a naval combat in a sea zone in which Vichy convoy points are the only axis units?

If not, we have a bug.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

While Vichy France is neutral and not hostile to anyone, can an active allied power declare a naval combat in a sea zone in which Vichy convoy points are the only axis units?

If not, we have a bug.

Not if the Allied naval units are neutral to Vichy France.

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
Allied major powers at war with the installing major power may declare war on Vichy France. The declaration of war does not make Vichy France hostile to that Allied major power. However, if an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France, Vichy France becomes hostile to that unit’s controlling major power.

[joshuamnave]

Yes, all allied powers are neutral toward Vichy. The US is at war with Germany (the installing major power), Italy and Japan. In a sea zone containing just US ships and a single Vichy convoy, the US was able to initiate naval combat.

However the rule for initiating naval combat, 11.5.2, says "To initiate a combat, pick a sea area where you have an organized (non-convoy) unit at war with another major power, an announce that you will initiate combat there." It does not say that you have to be at war with another major power that is present in that sea area. Rule 9.9 says "exceptions to the restriction on neutral naval units fighting are ... all U.S. units after unrestricted naval warfare is chosen (option 50)." My read on that last bit is that an active US (which automatically selects option 50 when it goes to war) can fight neutral Vichy naval units, including CP's.

If that interpretation is correct, then there is no problem. If my interpretation is wrong, then there is a bug.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

Yes, all allied powers are neutral toward Vichy. The US is at war with Germany (the installing major power), Italy and Japan. In a sea zone containing just US ships and a single Vichy convoy, the US was able to initiate naval combat.

However the rule for initiating naval combat, 11.5.2, says "To initiate a combat, pick a sea area where you have an organized (non-convoy) unit at war with another major power, an announce that you will initiate combat there." It does not say that you have to be at war with another major power that is present in that sea area. Rule 9.9 says "exceptions to the restriction on neutral naval units fighting are ... all U.S. units after unrestricted naval warfare is chosen (option 50)." My read on that last bit is that an active US (which automatically selects option 50 when it goes to war) can fight neutral Vichy naval units, including CP's.

If that interpretation is correct, then there is no problem. If my interpretation is wrong, then there is a bug.

Your interpretation is correct.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
11.5 Naval combat
11.5.1 Combat sequence

Choose a sea area and initiate a combat there. You can only choose an area if it contains at least one unit from each side that are at war with each other.

If Vichy France is neutral it is not at war with anyone and combat cannot be initiated.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

Yes, all allied powers are neutral toward Vichy. The US is at war with Germany (the installing major power), Italy and Japan. In a sea zone containing just US ships and a single Vichy convoy, the US was able to initiate naval combat.

However the rule for initiating naval combat, 11.5.2, says "To initiate a combat, pick a sea area where you have an organized (non-convoy) unit at war with another major power, an announce that you will initiate combat there." It does not say that you have to be at war with another major power that is present in that sea area. Rule 9.9 says "exceptions to the restriction on neutral naval units fighting are ... all U.S. units after unrestricted naval warfare is chosen (option 50)." My read on that last bit is that an active US (which automatically selects option 50 when it goes to war) can fight neutral Vichy naval units, including CP's.

If that interpretation is correct, then there is no problem. If my interpretation is wrong, then there is a bug.

Your interpretation is correct.

I can see how that conclusion can be reached but it was not the original intent. I know this because it was reworded in the draft for RAW8.

To initiate a combat in a sea area you must turn face-down one of your face-up units at war with another major power’s naval and/or air units in the sea area

I'm not saying MWiF is using RAW8, but in the event of RAW7 wording that can be interpreted different ways and thus needs clarification, the RAW8 draft from Harry Rowland should be considered authoritive I think.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

Yes, all allied powers are neutral toward Vichy. The US is at war with Germany (the installing major power), Italy and Japan. In a sea zone containing just US ships and a single Vichy convoy, the US was able to initiate naval combat.

However the rule for initiating naval combat, 11.5.2, says "To initiate a combat, pick a sea area where you have an organized (non-convoy) unit at war with another major power, an announce that you will initiate combat there." It does not say that you have to be at war with another major power that is present in that sea area. Rule 9.9 says "exceptions to the restriction on neutral naval units fighting are ... all U.S. units after unrestricted naval warfare is chosen (option 50)." My read on that last bit is that an active US (which automatically selects option 50 when it goes to war) can fight neutral Vichy naval units, including CP's.

If that interpretation is correct, then there is no problem. If my interpretation is wrong, then there is a bug.

Your interpretation is correct.

I can see how that conclusion can be reached but it was not the original intent. I know this because it was reworded in the draft for RAW8.

To initiate a combat in a sea area you must turn face-down one of your face-up units at war with another major power’s naval and/or air units in the sea area

I'm not saying MWiF is using RAW8, but in the event of RAW7 wording that can be interpreted different ways and thus needs clarification, the RAW8 draft from Harry Rowland should be considered authoritive I think.

Sure, it might be an unwanted effect, but if we take RAW7, MWIF is rightly coded. There is nothing which is unclear in RAW. Can you point out the different interpretation of this rule regarding who can attack who after this option is chosen? I can't:

50. Unrestricted naval warfare - US naval and aircraft units at sea
can freely attack, and be attacked by, any Axis naval and aircraft
units. You still can’t port attack, shore bombard, ground strike,
strategically bombard, carpet bomb, or fly ground support.
You can escort Allied convoys in any sea area with any number
of SCS or CVs.
You can now move any number of ships together as 1 naval
move, instead of counting each ship as a naval move.
You can only choose this entry option if you have already
chosen entry option 38.

[joshuamnave]

Rule 17.1 says that "Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government." It does not say that Vichy is a neutral Axis major power. Although I agree with Peter's interpretation of Rule 50, particularly since that is how the game is currently coded, you could argue that neutral Vichy units are not Axis naval units as the term is used in Rule 50.

In any case, if both interpretations are reasonable, then I would err on the side of the interpretation that has already been coded, as that means one less bug to worry about.

[paulderynck]

The reason I'd call it a bug is that Multiple States of War says "During port strikes and naval combats, a unit can’t fight against units from the other side unless it is at war with at least one of them..."

So then the only time the code "might" be right is when Option 50 is passed and Vichy still exists and is neutral. That's quite a small sample space.

[joshuamnave]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The reason I'd call it a bug is that Multiple States of War says "During port strikes and naval combats, a unit can’t fight against units from the other side unless it is at war with at least one of them..."

So then the only time the code "might" be right is when Option 50 is passed and Vichy still exists and is neutral. That's quite a small sample space.

That was the situation in my game that sparked the question. Actually, the sample space isn't all that small - as soon as the US is at war with the European Axis powers, option 50 is active. What's more likely to shrink the sample space is that Vichy naval units are pretty much only moving on a German naval action, and those aren't very common. Even then, you would need a reason to want to move the Vichy convoys, assuming any exist.

I don't know if other allied powers can initiate combat against Vichy convoys - if so, that would clearly be a bug. I do know that the current code will allow an active US to engage a neutral Vichy's convoys. After this discussion, I'm inclined to agree that that is in accordance with the rules.

[paulderynck]

Option 50 is against all the axis so the US has to pass it or be at war with everybody (except Vichy here).

It would be interesting to see what MWiF does in the same situation without option 50 in effect.

It does not say that Vichy is a neutral Axis major power.

BTW the RAW7 glossary states: "Side [there are two sides in World in Flames, the Axis and the Allies]" and we know Vichy is not on the Allied side.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government.

This is the way I read the rule:

What you are trying to do: To initiate a combat in a sea area
What you must do: you must turn face-down one of your face-up units
When you can do it you must be: at war with another major power’s naval and/or air units in the sea area.

This is the way You read the rule:

What you are trying to do: To initiate a combat in a sea area
What you must do: you must turn face-down one of your face-up units at war
When you can do it you must be: with another major power’s naval and/or air units in the sea area.


Using your reading of the rule:

The USSR Dow's Rumania. The USSR and Rumania declare peace. Germany aligns Rumania.
Germany moves a Rumanian SCS into the Black Sea.
Since Germany is at war and Rumania is aligned to Germany the Rumanian SCS can attack any USSR naval units in the Black Sea. Even though the USSR is at peace.



(1) Being at war doesn't give you carte blanche to attack another major power when you choose.

(2) As for sides don't ignore that major powers can be neutral in the game. Running the major power doesn't make that major power at war with anyone.


This is why there is a DoW. If you do either of these you can also ignore multiple states of war.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government.

This is the way I read the rule:

What you are trying to do: To initiate a combat in a sea area
What you must do: you must turn face-down one of your face-up units
When you can do it you must be: at war with another major power’s naval and/or air units in the sea area.

This is the way You read the rule:

What you are trying to do: To initiate a combat in a sea area
What you must do: you must turn face-down one of your face-up units at war
When you can do it you must be: with another major power’s naval and/or air units in the sea area.


Using your reading of the rule:

The USSR Dow's Rumania. The USSR and Rumania declare peace. Germany aligns Rumania.
Germany moves a Rumanian SCS into the Black Sea.
Since Germany is at war and Rumania is aligned to Germany the Rumanian SCS can attack any USSR naval units in the Black Sea. Even though the USSR is at peace.



(1) Being at war doesn't give you carte blanche to attack another major power when you choose.

(2) As for sides don't ignore that major powers can be neutral in the game. Running the major power doesn't make that major power at war with anyone.


This is why there is a DoW. If you do either of these you can also ignore multiple states of war.

But that would mean that the US can't use option 50 against Axis powers, until there has been a DoW. And that's not the intention of this option. This option clearly gives the US the possibility to attack without a DoW. And Vichy is on the Axis side, so it's naval units can be attacked while the US isn't at war with Vichy but has chosen option 50 or has activated it because it is at war with the another Axis major power...

[Extraneous]

Do you think this is what was intended?

Sep/Oct 1939 Japan is at war with China.
The US/Japan trade agreement is in effect.
The Japanese sinks the US convoys and says woops my bad.
The US is now in default of the trade agreement.
Japan randomly removes 2 entry markers from the Japanese entry pool.
Now the US cannot declare war on Japan or will have very few markers in the game.

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
50. Unrestricted naval warfare - US naval and aircraft units at sea can freely attack, and be attacked by, any Axis naval and aircraft units. You still can’t port attack, shore bombard, ground strike, strategically bombard, carpet bomb, or fly ground support.

You can escort Allied convoys in any sea area with any number of SCS or CVs.

You can now move any number of ships together as 1 naval move, instead of counting each ship as a naval move. You can only choose this entry option if you have already chosen entry option 38 Arm merchantmen.

The US cannot initiate a naval combat until it is at war.

If the Axis player initiates a naval combat the US may attack and be attacked without the multiple states pf war restrictions.

IE. If there are no Allied naval units present the US naval units cannot be included.

Option 50 allows Task Forces to be used to escort convoys it doesn't allow the US to initiate naval combat.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Do you think this is what was intended?

Sep/Oct 1939 Japan is at war with China.
The US/Japan trade agreement is in effect.
The Japanese sinks the US convoys and says woops my bad.
The US is now in default of the trade agreement.
Japan randomly removes 2 entry markers from the Japanese entry pool.
Now the US cannot declare war on Japan or will have very few markers in the game.

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
50. Unrestricted naval warfare - US naval and aircraft units at sea can freely attack, and be attacked by, any Axis naval and aircraft units. You still can’t port attack, shore bombard, ground strike, strategically bombard, carpet bomb, or fly ground support.

You can escort Allied convoys in any sea area with any number of SCS or CVs.

You can now move any number of ships together as 1 naval move, instead of counting each ship as a naval move. You can only choose this entry option if you have already chosen entry option 38 Arm merchantmen.

The US cannot initiate a naval combat until it is at war.

If the Axis player initiates a naval combat the US may attack and be attacked without the multiple states pf war restrictions.

IE. If there are no Allied naval units present the US naval units cannot be included.

Option 50 allows Task Forces to be used to escort convoys it doesn't allow the US to initiate naval combat.

Read the text of option 50, mr. Extraneous. Read it carefully. And than tell me if the US can't initiate combat after this option has been chosen. It can. That's what this option is all about.

50. Unrestricted naval warfare - US naval and aircraft units at sea
can freely attack, and be attacked by, any Axis naval and aircraft
units. You still can’t port attack, shore bombard, ground strike,
strategically bombard, carpet bomb, or fly ground support.
You can escort Allied convoys in any sea area with any number
of SCS or CVs.
You can now move any number of ships together as 1 naval
move, instead of counting each ship as a naval move.

So the US can do everything at sea a naval power who is at war can also do. You can attack the Japanese fleet even when the Japanese aren't at war with the US if this option has been chosen. Even if you can't DoW any Axis major power (due to the removal of chits) you can still kill the fleets and enemy convoys at sea. That's what this option means.
So the US can intercept naval movement and initiate any naval combat with Axis powers whether the Axis are at war with the US or not. It doesn't matter for the US. They can do what they want at sea when this option has been chosen. Neutrality isn't a protection against the might of the US navy...

That's it and that's how MWIF is coded. Period.

And than there is this: it's the US who needs the entry level to choose this option (or has to DoW another Axis major power). So it can't do this in S/O 1939 at all so the Japanese can't kill US convoys, can't they...

[paulderynck]

Anything outside of the US entry options is covered by Multiple States of War, which says you have to be at war with the power whose naval units you attack.

The wording in Option 50 also means a neutral Vichy could send out her SCS and Subs to attack US convoys and ships, but not CW or FF ones.

I doubt this is the intent.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Anything outside of the US entry options is covered by Multiple States of War, which says you have to be at war with the power whose naval units you attack.

The wording in Option 50 also means a neutral Vichy could send out her SCS and Subs to attack US convoys and ships, but not CW or FF ones.

I doubt this is the intent.

I agree that you may doubt the intension of this rule. But it is how it is written and MWIF is therefore coded this way...

[paulderynck]

...we think. The acid test is what happens without Option 50 in effect...

[Extraneous]

Option 50 doesn't allow the US to initiate naval combat.

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
11.5.2 Initiating a combat
To initiate a combat, point to a sea area where you have a face-up (non-convoy) unit at war with another major power, and announce that you will initiate combat there. If you have no face-up units in the area (except convoys), you can’t initiate a combat there. If you chose an air action, the unit chosen must be an aircraft.

ORIGINAL: AUSTRALIAN DESIGN GROUP WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary © 2009, Australian Design Group
11.5 Naval combat
Q11.5-1
Rule refrence: 11.5.4 and 9.9
Are neutral Naval Units "commited" in Naval combats if other Naval Units from Active Major Power of the same side are? (This is to know if they must abort the Sea area if their side decide to Abort after naval combat -- See Q11.5-11)

Harry Rowland's Answer: No, see 9.9. Date 28/12/2007

11.5.4 Committing units: You must commit every non-SUB unit in the sea area to combat.

9.9 Multiple states of war: During port strikes and naval combats, a unit can’t fight against units from the other side unless it is at war with at least one of them (being at war with an enemy unit the naval unit is transporting is not enough).

However, you resolve, as one combat, a combat that includes units that are not at war with each other, so long as each unit included is at war with at least 1 enemy unit in the combat.



11.6 Opponent’s naval combat
Q11.6-1
Rule refrence: 11.6 and 11.5.2
If you move a unit which is not at war with any MP into a sea area where the other side is present, does that allow the other
side to initiate combat per 11.6 if there is some other unit already in that sea area that is at war with the side wishing to initiate combat?

Harry Rowland's Answer: Yes. Date 23/12/2007

11.6 Opponent’s naval combat: After your side has resolved combat in all their selected sea areas, any major power on the other side can try to initiate combat (see 11.5.2) in any other sea areas your side moved a non-SUB unit into or within (but not through) in your naval air missions step or your naval movement step.

11.5.2 Initiating a combat: To initiate a combat, point to a sea area where you have a face-up (non-convoy) unit at war with another major power, and announce that you will initiate combat there.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
Option 50 doesn't allow the US to initiate naval combat.

Many US Entry options provide specific exceptions to the general rules. FREX US Entry Options 11, 20, 29 and 38 allow a neutral power to fight active axis powers.

No reason to think Option 50 does not as well. IMO it's a stretch to include a neutral Vichy for attacking and being attacked by, but that's the literal wording that is written there.