FPC Limitations

The new Cold War turned hot wargame from On Target Simulations, now expanded with the Player's Edition! Choose the NATO or Soviet forces in one of many scenarios or two linked campaigns. No effort was spared to model modern warfare realistically, including armor, infantry, helicopters, air support, artillery, electronic warfare, chemical and nuclear weapons. An innovative new asynchronous turn order means that OODA loops and various effects on C3 are accurately modeled as never before.

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Mad Russian
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FPC Limitations

Post by Mad Russian »

FPC has some limitations. There are only four nations in the game currently. I've seen this mentioned as a drawback to the game. It is. That's a limitation. We only had so much time to put content into the game. We could have taken the time to do the game from WWII through 3000, but, when would anyone but 4 people be playing it? No, pick the Big 4 and go with those first. We can add anyone, and everyone else, later. If it becomes a big enough issue modders can add anyone and everyone before we get there.

How the game code progressed is a bit different this time. The code was rewritten, from Flash Point Germany almost totally. There was an interim time period where the development team was working to do the Middle East but that stalled for various reasons. When the wheels started turning again it was on West German soil.

When I first started playing with the code, after all the direction rewrites that I gave to Rob(sorry Rob), I didn't know how the code would respond. So, at first, I played all nations forces the same. It didn't take long to find out that was a really bad idea. If you follow the scenario progression, you can literally follow the code progression.

SIDE NOTE: A Time to Dance has been played hundreds of times by the team. The first time Jim and Rob played the scenario there was a conference call and I was asked why I had units appearing in the middle of the map. That didn't really seem like a good idea. I explained, that there is a US base there, that the 11th ACR is activating from. That as they come online you get to take charge of them.

As many times as it's been played it still surprises us with the results at times. It is often the scenario used to run a test of code issues on. Because it's been played so much and it's so small we can run tests with it and get results from a known parameter. We know what it's done in the past. At least for the most part...[:D]



As each scenario activated, it added in another section of code to cover what features were being presented in the scenario. The result of that was, we all learned to play the Americans first. The first 8 scenarios done were the Americans. Then came the West Germans. BIG SURPRISE! They aren't American forces in Leos!! [X(]

Okay, have to learn to fight with them. If the game is worthwhile, the real life tactics should work best. We have the units and terrain as best we can model, which should mean the WG tactics should be the best to try. Starting from there we found those actually did work best. Along in here Charles joined the team and he was also surprised to find the difference in game play between nationalities. That was great!!! Rob and Jim have done their job!!! [&o]

After the WG scenarios came the British. How were they going to play. BIG SURPRISE! They didn't play anything like either the American or West German forces.

There are two reasons they all play differently. First is terrain. The areas I chose to include in the map were intentionally different. They were chosen to present as large a pool of different terrain maps as possible. This would get scenario designers started immediately; without having to rely on just a few maps. Second, their missions are all different, which means their equipment mix is different. Couple the terrain they were to defend, with the equipment they had to defend it with and you get the tactics they came up with to do the job. Add those all together and you pretty much have how Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm plays as NATO.

But, we didn't stop there. We then went back and looked at how the AI works and what would be the best scenarios to convert to be played from the Warsaw Pact side. The AI was intended to primarily be an attack AI so we can't put NATO in defensive posture, that will come in later versions of the game, so, what would work? The Meeting Engagements (ME's)! All of the scenarios are theoretically okay for head to head play but some are very unbalanced in favor of the Soviets as far as play balance goes. With the game coming together fast and a customer base and publisher wanting the game NOW we playtested deep into the night.

What you see is 4 nations armed forces. Each of them pretty much use real world, for the time, tactics to fight and win. Each scenario was specifically designed to highlight a part of the game. They were then balanced as much as time allowed. The terrain, equipment and situations were all there. Those were then bundled up into the 2 campaigns and those scenarios also had their own maps and situations. They were playtested down to the last hour before release. That's what you have now.

We think all four nations play well. Each is different in mission, equipment and the tactics required to win. I tried to stay as true to their tactics as possible. With more tools, being discussed for future releases that should get even better.



Image


Green are best played as American vs AI.
Blue are best played as West German vs AI.
Gold are best played as British vs AI.
Red are best played as Soviets vs AI.
Grey are best played Head to Head.

Hope that helps.

Good Hunting.

MR
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Tazak
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by Tazak »

I think what OTS has produced has captured my focus a lot more than other 'wargames' and for the majority I'm as happy as a pig in mud, yes there are some limitations but nothing that stops me from playing this game.

I can see the potential within this game and from the level of activity from all the game dev on the forums I have confidence that this game will only get better.

AUCTO SPLENDORE RESURGO
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by CapnDarwin »

Getting better and bigger is the plan. [:D]
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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On Target Simulations LTD
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by Panta_slith »

I haven't played v2.03 much so far, but for what I have seen, the engine now behaves more realistically, with infantry holding defensive ground more efficiently and making the armour pay a toll in urban or forest terrain. The spotting routines have improved as well, as the AD and air-to-ground segments. I can't say that everything has been solved yet until I play a bit more, but the new patch is a big improvement indeed, congrats!
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jds1978
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by jds1978 »

What are the different nationalities being worked on? The East German NVA and Polish (or Czech Army...it's kind of a toss up as to which I'd rather see) are probably most missed on the Pact side. France has to be next for NATO, right?

Are you planning on releasing them as separate modules or with patches?

Obviously, take your time....this simulation is pretty sweet as is[:)]
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Mad Russian
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by Mad Russian »

France was not a NATO country at this time.

Of course there are only East German, Czech and Polish forces missing from the Pact. The goal is to fill in the OOB's for both sides.

Good Hunting.

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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by Squid »

Given what you have accomplished with the resources available, I think its limitations are pretty astounding, by their lack of. I understand though, that its a fine line between having an infinitely moddable game, and having stuff that you the devs can release as DLC.

I've mentioned before that to my mind a mid eighties series of scenarios and OOBs would put the cherry on this rather fine cake. If you released it as paid for DLC you would have a guaranteed sale. Then again if anyone has the time to do it for free, I wont turn that down either.

Going back to the OP, I would love to find out more about the various forms of fighting of the protagonists. I think I have a good handle on how the WP forces would behave and perhaps the US, the Brits and West Germans are more esoteric though. Could you offer any insight Mad Russian?
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wodin
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by wodin »

Haven't played for abit and after playing a couple of games over the last day or so I have to say it's getting better and better. I'm impatient for more!
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by Plodder »

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

France was not a NATO country at this time.

That's not quite correct. France was a non-observant member and there were plans in place to integrate the various French forces if it all kicked off.
Gen. Montgomery: "Your men don't salute much."
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by jds1978 »

ORIGINAL: The Plodder

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

France was not a NATO country at this time.

That's not quite correct. France was a non-observant member and there were plans in place to integrate the various French forces if it all kicked off.

Yes, France was out of the unified command....but not the alliance.

They would've fought (if not integrated into the existing command structure) given a bolt out of the blue by the Soviets
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by Sabre21 »

You could always include Hungarian forces too as well as the Canadian units. By the way, the 1st Canadian Division was assigned to the US VII Corps for wartime purposes. The division Hq was activated in April 88 but only 1 brigade was in Germany at Lahr, the other 2 brigades would reinforce from Canada.

I agree with those that posted above about the French. The 1st French Army was pretty much dedicated to supporting Nato. Two corps were assigned to Centag and 1 corps to Northag. Their divisions were smaller than other Nato divisions, but as I recall there were 3 stationed in Germany and 7 more belonging to the 1st Army inside of France.

When you include their Rapid Deployment Force (which was assigned to Northag) of a light armored division, an airmobile division, a Marine, and an Airborne division, it would have been a decent sized force to reckon with.

I would never consider the things MR pointed out as drawbacks or limitations, just the starting point of a great game. I'm just glad you guys took the time to create it. I figure the only way this game will leave my hard drive is if it explodes, and that would be a fitting end for any good wargame.
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by jds1978 »

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

You could always include Hungarian forces too as well as the Canadian units. By the way, the 1st Canadian Division was assigned to the US VII Corps for wartime purposes. The division Hq was activated in April 88 but only 1 brigade was in Germany at Lahr, the other 2 brigades would reinforce from Canada.

I agree with those that posted above about the French. The 1st French Army was pretty much dedicated to supporting Nato. Two corps were assigned to Centag and 1 corps to Northag. Their divisions were smaller than other Nato divisions, but as I recall there were 3 stationed in Germany and 7 more belonging to the 1st Army inside of France.

When you include their Rapid Deployment Force (which was assigned to Northag) of a light armored division, an airmobile division, a Marine, and an Airborne division, it would have been a decent sized force to reckon with.

I would never consider the things MR pointed out as drawbacks or limitations, just the starting point of a great game. I'm just glad you guys took the time to create it. I figure the only way this game will leave my hard drive is if it explodes, and that would be a fitting end for any good wargame.

That's the other big question re: France.....would their divisions be able to handle the high intensity of a mechanized war? Would they have the staying power to handle their responsibilities? Kind of chilling when you look at the French nuclear doctrine (situated outside the US/UK SIOP; one of the triggers for release was a large French formation being annihilated on the battlefield.) Put it too you this way: France is never going to allow June, 1940 again w/o taking down the northern hemisphere with them.

I always assumed that the Hungarians would be deployed against Austria and/or Yugoslavia.

I agree with you regarding 'limitations'.....think of them more like (arbitrary and changeable) boundaries. Without them, the project would be vapor ware (it's impressive enough that the devs were able to get us a believable sim for a war that was never fought....now throw in every OrBat and maps from every possible beligerent from the Arctic Circle to the Persian Gulf? It would've never been finished)
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by Plodder »

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

You could always include Hungarian forces too as well as the Canadian units. By the way, the 1st Canadian Division was assigned to the US VII Corps for wartime purposes. The division Hq was activated in April 88 but only 1 brigade was in Germany at Lahr, the other 2 brigades would reinforce from Canada.

I agree with those that posted above about the French. The 1st French Army was pretty much dedicated to supporting Nato. Two corps were assigned to Centag and 1 corps to Northag. Their divisions were smaller than other Nato divisions, but as I recall there were 3 stationed in Germany and 7 more belonging to the 1st Army inside of France.

When you include their Rapid Deployment Force (which was assigned to Northag) of a light armored division, an airmobile division, a Marine, and an Airborne division, it would have been a decent sized force to reckon with.

I would never consider the things MR pointed out as drawbacks or limitations, just the starting point of a great game. I'm just glad you guys took the time to create it. I figure the only way this game will leave my hard drive is if it explodes, and that would be a fitting end for any good wargame.

Sabre21, have you had a look at the battlefield tour? In it there is an Orbat for NATO and Warsaw Pact that I compiled from various sources. I've found out since making it that the British orbat is not correct and a few other errors may have slipped in. I'd like to update it at some point so a fresh set of eyes on it would be welcome.
Gen. Montgomery: "Your men don't salute much."
Gen. Freyberg: "Well, if you wave at them they'll usually wave back."
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: The Plodder

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

France was not a NATO country at this time.

That's not quite correct. France was a non-observant member and there were plans in place to integrate the various French forces if it all kicked off.


France was not a NATO country at the time. It doesn't matter the amount of plans. The Best Laid Plans theory comes into play here.

We are trying to do NATO countries first. Having said that we are working to include France. But when you guys ask for NATO countries you should be aware that France was not a NATO country. No matter what contingency plans were in place. France withdrew themselves from NATO. Then asked that no US servicemen visit France. It was pretty ugly for awhile. The only thing that would have brought France into the war was a situation that I view as being way too little, way too late.

Of course, there's no way of knowing if that would have been true or not.

Good Hunting.

MR
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Mad Russian
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I would never consider the things MR pointed out as drawbacks or limitations, just the starting point of a great game. I'm just glad you guys took the time to create it. I figure the only way this game will leave my hard drive is if it explodes, and that would be a fitting end for any good wargame.

The things I pointed out are comments I've read about the game on sites and sounds around the community. I don't have the time or effort to join each site to make comments so I put them all here.

There are some interesting things being said about the game in the community. Some of them don't make a lot of sense.

Good Hunting.

MR
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by wodin »

Can we have a brief description of the weapons and vehicle describing what it does and how it is used and how well it is rated when looking at the unit info? Will help those who have little knowledge of modern weapon systems.
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by MBot »

I think the initial nations of FC:RS are a fantastic selection and will keep me occupied for quite some time. I do look forward though to see the other nations of NATO, the WP and especially France.

A nation which might be interesting to round out Central Europe is Switzerland. There was the fear that the Czechoslovakian Front would try to bypass the Rhine crossing between Germany and France by crossing into Switzerland near the Bodensee, moving through the Swiss Mittelland and then cross back into France towards their operational objective Dijon. A large part of the Swiss army was to fortify in the Alps, this would obviously not fit well into FC:RS. But there were also significant mechanized forces (including Leopard 2 tanks) to fight a maneuver battle in the Mittelland against such an intrusion. Of course the other NATO and WP countries should come first but if there is time, this might be a quite unique addition.
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by wodin »

Sill would like to see some Finnish action or Arctic warfare anyway..with it's adverse weather conditions etc etc.
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by Mad Russian »

What about Greece, Turkey, Yugoslavia, Italy?

Just thinking out loud here. [:D]

Good Hunting.

MR
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RE: FPC Limitations

Post by wodin »

All of them please.
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