Got Two and One is Odd

[GaPete_slith]

OK first bug and I don't have it saved. I didn't realize it was a bug till I was reading over the rules. That was a week after I encountered it. In the US Entry action, very early on in the game, I chose Occupy Iceland and Greenland. Well according to the rules I should not have been able to choose that option because Germany had not declared war on Denmark. The result was, it would not let Germany declare war on Denmark after that. It took it off the list for DOW on minors. I had to let Italy declare war on Denmark. After Denmark was conquered, despite having that option still listed as yes on the US Entry chart, Iceland and Greenland were then considered neutral countries that the US could not enter. No big deal I got around all that.

Now for the weird one I just got too. I can't seem to get around this one. I don't have this saved because it won't let me save it during that phase. Japan and the US are NOT at war with each other. Japan declares war on Guatemala. Before they can land troops the US moves marines and an air unit into Guatemala's one pacific port. Since Guatemala has been aligned with the US, the US can move troops there that the Japanese can't attack. So the Japanese landed troops on the coast, went around the US Marines, took the capital. End of Turn phase comes and Guatemala is declared conquered by Japan. Then I get a phase that says I have to rebase the marine and air unit. The port is still US flagged even if the rest of Guatemala is Japanese. There is nowhere these units can rebase too. It won't let them stay, it won't destroy them, the phase will not advance. Any suggestions?

[GaPete_slith]

OK, I was able to pull the game up from the autosave. It starts right at the conquest phase and then you'll see where I'm stuck. According to the little feedback bar that gives you notes on stuff in the admin window, it says the only legal place they can go is the hex they are in. Problem is, when you try and move them to that, it just cancels the move.

[AxelNL]

First one can be reproduced. Smart catch.
Second one needs to be looked at. No bordering country where the US troops can go to, I suppose.

[paulderynck]

Second one is not a bug - the US units are supposed to teleport out of there because it was conquered and the US is not at war with the conqueror. See the Conquest rules.

Now the mechanics of getting them out of there might be bugged, but the game is trying to do things in accordance with the rules.

[joshuamnave]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Second one is not a bug - the US units are supposed to teleport out of there because it was conquered and the US is not at war with the conqueror. See the Conquest rules.

Now the mechanics of getting them out of there might be bugged, but the game is trying to do things in accordance with the rules.

Half right. Those units should have been attackable by the Japanese, just like German peacekeepers in Bessarabia should be attackable.

[GaPete_slith]

Yes Zartacla, they should be attackable and, for all I know, they might be. That's not the problem I've encountered. I did not attack the Marines with the Japanese because the Japanese did not have enough firepower to do so. Also, if I understand the rules correctly, they would have to be stacked with hostile units to be attacked and there are none.

The bug has nothing to do with that. Axil is right, there is no friendly hex they can reach. This leaves the game stuck at this point. I know the rules as coded say they are supposed to teleport but they don't. This doesn't appear to be a glitch in the coding, it just seems to be a situation no one ever considered. It's one reason why I've been playing this game doing such things to see what the limits of the game are.

Guess to keep the game going, I'll have to go back and just make sure this situation doesn't happen.

[Dabrion]

They should be attackable (Peacekeeper bug was reported already) and they should teleport to the nearest friendly hex after conquest (as Paul described). That makes two bugs in my book, and I hope it does on your "list" as well.

[GaPete_slith]

Um, no Dabrion because the Japanese never tried to attack them. So I don't know if that is a bug or not. It might be, it might not, I have no idea because I never tried to have combat. If I understand the rules correctly, in the multistate combat section, the US unit can only be attacked if it is stacked with a belligerent to the attacking power, and this is not the case here. Maybe I read that wrong, I don't know, but since I never tried I can't say. What I can say is I can't get past this phase because it won't let me do anything with those units.

[Dabrion]

A unit can also be attacked if stacked in a hex controlled by a belligerent to the attacking power , ref: RAW7 9.9 §2. This is not possible in MWiF (already reported, in context with German peacekeepers in Rumania after a hot Bessarabia claim). The teleport is from RAW7 13.7.1 "Incomplete Conquest" §5.

[AxelNL]

Guys - the new bug here is that the teleportation doesn't seem to work when there are no friendly hexes bording the minor country. Now that we are handling this I have a question for the Paul/Dabrion rule gurus. Suppose US is neutral to Japan, but in war with Germany. How do the rules handle this above situation if nearest friendly hex is:

a) only reachable over enemy German territory
b) only reachable over sea without a transport in reach, intercept-able by enemy German ships or air?

Should it be removed from the map (to the forcepool?) or should it stay fighting, being OOS most probably? Or should the teleportation still have to work? Which looks to me something the Germans would not have allowed?

My conclusion is that the rules are not perfect. But given the rarity of this event, should we care?

[Dabrion]

Here is the relevant passage with my annotation for the current case.

All units from the conquered side [sic: US' side, the Allies] in that country are now moved to
the nearest friendly hex outside the country [sic: prolly Panama] that they may stack in,
unless they are at war with the conquerer [sid: Japan].

I agree there are lots of fuzzy parts in the rules. This is not one of them to me.


#edit, i misread your question
The teleport is still happening. And it is not really strange in general. The parties in question (conqueror and unit in the conquered country) are not at war, so units are just expelled from the territory.

[GaPete_slith]

I went back and tried to get around the problem. I moved both US transports to the port with the US Marine and air unit. So when this rebase phase came up they would have the ability to leave. It did not work. It said both transports were forced to rebase and they did not, they just didn't show up as eligible units to move. The Marine and air unit were still required to move but, once again, same problem. I went to the command menu and requested valid moves, it told me there were none for both Marine and air. So the game is stuck now, I can't go forward unless I can figure out how to get around this.

[Centuur]

The port where the US units are, should become a Japanese controlled hex during conquest, since the US is neutral towards the Japanese. This doesn't happen. That's preventing the units from leaving Guatemala, because the nearest hex the program thinks they can stack in is the port in Guatemala. That's the bug.

Apparently, the code does not take into account the fact that the US is neutral...

[GaPete_slith]

Yes I did notice that the hex was still flagged US and the game was telling me that particular hex was the nearest place it could go, course you can't do that cause it will cancel your move when you try. My question now is, can it be fixed so I can continue this game or do I need to start over?

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: GaPete

Yes I did notice that the hex was still flagged US and the game was telling me that particular hex was the nearest place it could go, course you can't do that cause it will cancel your move when you try. My question now is, can it be fixed so I can continue this game or do I need to start over?

I can't do anything in the conquest phase.

However, what I would advise you to do is to continue this game, until the reïnforcement phase of the US starts. Set up your units for reïnforcement and make and upload the saved game in a PM to me (don't end the US reïnforcement phase, please). I can use the debug feature to correct things at that moment. I will move the US units in Guatamala to the nearest possible hex (I think this is Guantanamo) and will than make the hex Japanese for you. After this, I'll send the saved game back to you. OK?

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I can't do anything in the conquest phase.

However, what I would advise you to do is to continue this game, until the reïnforcement phase of the US starts. Set up your units for reïnforcement and make and upload the saved game in a PM to me (don't end the US reïnforcement phase, please). I can use the debug feature to correct things at that moment. I will move the US units in Guatamala to the nearest possible hex (I think this is Guantanamo) and will than make the hex Japanese for you. After this, I'll send the saved game back to you. OK?

Only trouble with this is that the save you make Centuur has a higher version number and you can't load such a save with a version with a lower number. That save can only be loaded by beta testers until next update is released. After that the version number should be high enough for GaPete.

I am sorry about that. [:(]

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I can't do anything in the conquest phase.

However, what I would advise you to do is to continue this game, until the reïnforcement phase of the US starts. Set up your units for reïnforcement and make and upload the saved game in a PM to me (don't end the US reïnforcement phase, please). I can use the debug feature to correct things at that moment. I will move the US units in Guatamala to the nearest possible hex (I think this is Guantanamo) and will than make the hex Japanese for you. After this, I'll send the saved game back to you. OK?

Only trouble with this is that the save you make Centuur has a higher version number and you can't load such a save with a version with a lower number. That save can only be loaded by beta testers until next update is released. After that the version number should be high enough for GaPete.

I am sorry about that. [:(]

True, but he can try to restore it and see what happens. If it fails to restore, he has to wait until the next patch and can continue the game at that point. It's his decision.

[AxelNL]

You can try to edit the version number in the gamesave. I tried it once - and it worked....no guarantees however.

[GaPete_slith]

Axil, I've already got the game saved before the conquest phase, it's in the last impulse before the end of the turn. Course it doesn't mean that the turn will end then cause you could get a different roll, that's why I'm wondering can you do this fix at that point?

[paulderynck]

You can control the die rolls, so don't let the turn end, and instead move the US units out and then make the turn end. If the TRS are disorganized, maybe you have other TRS that can re-org them first? In the meantime the other powers just do Passes.

Not an optimal situation by any means but the bug is preventing you from progressing a game in which you have a lot of time invested - thus the suggestion.

The Debug tool might work at this point as well, but there's always the possibility it plants a seed for a later unrecoverable crash that is not really a bug...