Trying To Like The Game But...

[rmonical]

You should play both sides before forming definitive conclusions.

I think the game is currently so far biased in the Soviet favor that experienced players are waiting for .14 to see what emerges before starting new games. My opinion is based on a couple of Road To .... scenarios and a resigned campaign game, but the Soviet wins were absurdly easy. These were all .13.

I think that a realistic game will be heavily biased in the Soviet favor because the Soviet player can avoid the most egregious high command errors of 1941.

No question that the Soviet player is the harder player 41-42. I assume you have learned techniques that will help you do much better in the future.

You will have no problem finding opponents to take the Soviet side in future games.

[Wheat]

ORIGINAL: rmonical


You will have no problem finding opponents to take the Soviet side in future games.

Lol, I think getting HIM to take the Germans will be the problem.

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

A) The decline in German NM level after 1942. (This is bugged and does not decline.)

Units wil not magicly lose morale just becuse one year has passed, 70 morale refers to build morale , that is all units except elite, arive with a morale around 70.
while not explained in the manual , it is much harder to acheive morale gains above 80, in 1941 and 70 in 1942.

[morvael]

...but it's easier to regain morale that is below NM and harder to gain a lot over NM, therefore the mean moves with the NM level (while only defending and retreating most units will be roughly in range NM-10 to NM, while attacking and winning units will be roughly in the range NM to NM+5). The bugged part is that NM stays at 70 in 1943+, thus German units are stronger than intended at the end of war (however my personal opinion is that NM 55 is too low for '45).

[Gabriel B.]

Than it does not realy matter , german national morale could be 50, as long as he does not beat a unit repeatly ,it will remain
at build morale .

[Tarhunnas]

The Germans probably need a NM of 70 or so to have a chance late war, so I don't see this as a problem. And as you say Morvael, 55 is probably to low anyway from a realism standpoint.

[GamesaurusRex]

Gentlemen... The issue I highlighted here regarding the morale mechanism in the game is that the game design intended to increase the Russian morale, while decreasing the German morale, slowly over time. This design scheme is both historically accurate, as Germany expected to complete the war by 1942, and conceptually reasonable as a mechanism that slowly increases Russian resistance. Both the morale mechanism and the Guard Status formation process were intended and expected to raise Russian CV as the CG progresses. Neither are working properly. The morale mechanism isn't, because as Morvael has confirmed in his comment above, the relative NM of the German side is held arbitrarily higher (essentially frozen at 42 levels) than the game design is supposed support. The Guard Status formation isn't, because although Morvael fixed the bug that was doubling the rate of Guards formation in recent patches, I suspect the number of "wins" required by the mechanism to achieve Guards status was set based upon playtester experience using the ealier flawed code. Now the code is working properly, when combined with a blizzard reduction, the rate of Guards formation is greatly reduced.

The effect of these problems has given those who played the game under earlier patches the false impression that the Russian side is overpowered. As of the .11 patch, this is not so in my opinion.

(NOTE: There may be game mechanisms yet at work that might merit leaving things as they are, but I won't know that until I have played the CG fully through.)

[Michael T]

Are you basing your view on just one game?

I have played 20. Pelton probably double that. Many others at least 10+.

You should play German against a vet Soviet. Then you will see the light [8D]

[Denniss]

I see no problem with the german 70 NM either, they are sufficiently penalized by enforcing the lower strength divisions from late 43 on (regardless of the war situation). Without this they would fold even faster vs huge size soviet corps.

[rmonical]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
Neither are working properly.

They are working fine, perhaps too fine Here is a T109 screenshot of my game with hooooper giving you an idea of how ridiculously easy it is for the Soviets to build guards units. And it goes downhill from here fast.

[rmonical]

As for German morale, it only stays close to 70 as long as the infantry is winning half of the battles. This has been the case with my game with hooooper (T138). In part this is because he only recently stopped using the wave attacks. Now that he has a zillion guards infantry corps, he just smashes me wherever he want. Morale above national morale seems to drop with every attack

[Wheat]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Are you basing your view on just one game?

I have played 20. Pelton probably double that. Many others at least 10+.

You should play German against a vet Soviet. Then you will see the light [8D]

He's basing it on two and to be honest the first one we used Pelton's suggestions for increased German morale. I just ran over everything and Gamesaurus was so traumatized, he is suffering Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I really do feel he is factoring that uber German game into his posts. And yes, I have told him, he needs to play the Germans.

Our current game is much, much better and he is starting to push me back, even without all corps in the attack.

He still isn't getting to Berlin before 1950 however. (At least, that's the official line.)

The interesting thing to me, is how the game mechanics change the sides abilities. I can now take my elite Panzers, hit his troops hard, and they never rout.

I can have an elite motorized unit (morale 90)leave the game, return the next month sans transport, and have a morale of 70. Now THAT sucks.

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Are you basing your view on just one game?

I have played 20. Pelton probably double that. Many others at least 10+.

You should play German against a vet Soviet. Then you will see the light [8D]

As I indicated above, I suspect your view is clouded by the fact that most of your 20 games were played prior to patch .11 .

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: rmonical

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
Neither are working properly.

They are working fine, perhaps too fine Here is a T109 screenshot of my game with hooooper giving you an idea of how ridiculously easy it is for the Soviets to build guards units. And it goes downhill from here fast.

What patch is this game ? If before Morvaels "fix", then the wins counted for Guards formation are twice what they are now. If not, then I suggest Hooper is too careless with the positioning of his troops and has given away "wins" to you by his poor end-turn positioning. Wheat has completely avoided this by not overextending his advances.

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: Wheat

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Are you basing your view on just one game?

I have played 20. Pelton probably double that. Many others at least 10+.

You should play German against a vet Soviet. Then you will see the light [8D]

He's basing it on two and to be honest the first one we used Pelton's suggestions for increased German morale. I just ran over everything and Gamesaurus was so traumatized, he is suffering Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I really do feel he is factoring that uber German game into his posts. And yes, I have told him, he needs to play the Germans.

Our current game is much, much better and he is starting to push me back, even without all corps in the attack.

He still isn't getting to Berlin before 1950 however. (At least, that's the official line.)

The interesting thing to me, is how the game mechanics change the sides abilities. I can now take my elite Panzers, hit his troops hard, and they never rout.

I can have an elite motorized unit (morale 90)leave the game, return the next month sans transport, and have a morale of 70. Now THAT sucks.

No, I'm not basing it on the first game. That game was not relevent for judging anything because of the morale bug that maxxed the German side at 100. I'm basing it on the fact that you have clearly demonstrated that the German side can drive the Russians back behind Leningrad-Moskow-Stalingrad by 1943 and do it without overextending the advancing spearheads under patch .11 and beyond.

With the Guards Status bug fixed and careful German positioning in 41-42, this results in thwarting the development of one of the Russian's major tools in the game that enables Russian counter offensives. Whether or not this requires adjustment is entirely a seperate issue, since there may be counterbalancing issues of game mechanisms not working properly and against the German side in the later part of the game. (For example, some have mentioned equipment swapping problems.)

I think Morvael is correct in fixing all the mechanical issues as he has. I only want to highlight their existence so he can properly adjust the overall balance where he can and feels it is fitting. In the case of the Guards Status build up rate, it may be that he might want to adjust the number of "wins" needed to attain these, if that number was set back when the code was double crediting the units. I merely point out the question.

[heliodorus04]

Play. The. Germans.
Reasoned examples are clearly not sufficient to convert your opinion.
Play the German side and then tell us how awesomes it is.

[Gabriel B.]

Some of the guards in the picture are divisions , the impact of atached suport units for those is zero .

[Michael T]

Rex, I may be wrong but I think you are not taking in to consideration the relative skill of vet Soviets V your own limited skill set so far. Most games V vet Soviets will be well and truly over before first winter. So the first winter fix matters little if the game is effectively over before it kicks in. I doubt any fix that morvael does is going to address this issue. So perhaps my time with WITE is done unless I am surprised by an Axis resurgence in summer 41. The wall is the biggest problem with the game as I see it. Meanwhile I am looking toward newer East Front games on the burner now that hopefully will portray the war in a better way.

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Rex, I may be wrong but I think you are not taking in to consideration the relative skill of vet Soviets V your own limited skill set so far. Most games V vet Soviets will be well and truly over before first winter. So the first winter fix matters little if the game is effectively over before it kicks in. I doubt any fix that morvael does is going to address this issue. So perhaps my time with WITE is done unless I am surprised by an Axis resurgence in summer 41. The wall is the biggest problem with the game as I see it. Meanwhile I am looking toward newer East Front games on the burner now that hopefully will portray the war in a better way.

Michael T:

I could reciprocate similarly by noting that your view is clouded by your personal inadequacy at executing a proper German invasion... but then I would be lowering myself to your level. [8D]

[STEF78]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Rex, I may be wrong but I think you are not taking in to consideration the relative skill of vet Soviets V your own limited skill set so far. Most games V vet Soviets will be well and truly over before first winter. So the first winter fix matters little if the game is effectively over before it kicks in. I doubt any fix that morvael does is going to address this issue. So perhaps my time with WITE is done unless I am surprised by an Axis resurgence in summer 41. The wall is the biggest problem with the game as I see it. Meanwhile I am looking toward newer East Front games on the burner now that hopefully will portray the war in a better way.

Michael T:

I could reciprocate similarly by noting that your view is clouded by your personal inadequacy at executing a proper German invasion... but then I would be lowering myself to your level. [8D]

Gamesaurus, I don't know what his your level as WITE player, as german or russian.

Personnaly, I simply consider Michael T as the one the 3 best players of WITE, among those who published on this forum.

If you both agree to play this game Gamesaurus/Michael T, I would bet on Michael T, no doubt and whatever the side choosen.

Maybe I'm wrong, and in this case you are a fantastic player and I would like to see the AAR.