Clarification about Vichy

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Except Vichy isn't hostile towards particular powers, they're hostile in general.

And at least where Vichy is concerned, "hostile" is a level above and beyond war. Once they're hostile, they don't turn around and run away about half the time, and their fleet can stay out at sea, and stuff. I've always thought of it as a kind of Vichy getting serious about fighting, and not just fighting the least they can get away with under the eye of the German overlords.


Re: Option 50 in Europe. Yeah, it is kind of weird and stupid that if Italy or Vichy had been staying out of things so far, sudden surprise U.S. visit by warships is.... odd.

I'm struggling, however, to articulate a way of phrasing the rule, that keeps the U.S. from fighting a neutral Vichy or Italy, but allows them to fight a neutral Japan, since a Japan only realistically becomes neutral if China is conquered, and I don't think that a U.S. willing to attack their ships over a war in china (or whatever other provocations) would back down just because organized resistance collapsed.

[paulderynck]

Simple: "US naval and aircraft units at sea may freely attack (including initiating combat), and be attacked by, any active Axis naval and aircraft units."

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Except that gives, to me, an undesirable outcome.

I think it's quite frankly absurd that you can have a Japan at war with China (and nobody else), the U.S. can play option 50, and happy hunting. Then, if the Japanese conquer China, and become an inactive major power, welp, suddenly we'll just stop shooting each other. Especially since it's Japan who is the one who is probably most atrsk if the U.S. plays option 50 to begin with. I mean, sure, there are workarounds, but it seems a bit silly.

[Extraneous]

Zartacla Post #4

In particular...

ORIGINAL: Zartacla
"To initiate a combat, pick a sea area where you have an organized (non-convoy) unit at war with another major power, an announce that you will initiate combat there." It does not say that you have to be at war with another major power that is present in that sea area. Rule 9.9 says "exceptions to the restriction on neutral naval units fighting are ... all U.S. units after unrestricted naval warfare is chosen (option 50)." My read on that last bit is that an active US (which automatically selects option 50 when it goes to war) can fight neutral Vichy naval units, including CP's.

ORIGINAL: WiFFE=RAW-7.0.pdf
11.5 Naval combat
11.5.1 Combat sequence
Choose a sea area and initiate a combat there. You can only choose an area if it contains at least one unit from each side that are at war with each other.

ORIGINAL: WiFFE=RAW-7.0.pdf
9.9 Multiple states of war

You can only attempt to intercept naval units you are at war with. If several major powers’ or minor country’s units attempt to intercept a task force containing units from the other side, you don’t all have to be at war with every moving unit to intercept the task force - however the naval units not at war with any intercepting major power or minor country are ignored in the subsequent naval combat.

During port strikes and naval combats, a unit can’t fight against units from the other side unless it is at war with at least one of them (being at war with an enemy unit the naval unit is transporting is not enough). However, you resolve, as one combat, a combat that includes units that are not at war with each other, so long as each unit included is at war with at least 1 enemy unit in the combat.

Example: A combat includes a Commonwealth and a US naval unit against a Japanese and a German unit. The US is at war with Japan and the Commonwealth is at war with Germany. You fight this as one combat even though US units can’t fight Germans and Japanese units can’t fight Commonwealth. The Japanese unit is sunk. In the next round, the US unit isn’t included because it can’t fight German units.

Exceptions to the restriction on neutral naval units fighting are US units escorting Allied convoys (see 13.3.2 US entry options, entry options 11 US east coast escorts, 29 North Atlantic escorts, 38 Arm merchantmen) and all US units after unrestricted naval warfare is chosen (entry option 50 Unrestricted naval warfare).

Rule 11.5.1 Combat sequence tells you when naval combat is initiated.
Rule 9.9 Multiple states of war tells you who is included.

Note: In the example in 9.9 Multiple states of war naval combat has been initiated by major powers that are at war. And explains who can now fight in that naval combat.



JFYI Orm.

Article 1 of the United States Constitution lists issuing letters of marque and reprisal in Section 8 as one of the enumerated powers of Congress, alongside the power to tax and to declare War. However, since the American Civil War, the United States as a matter of policy has consistently followed the terms of the 1856 Paris Declaration forbidding the practice. The United States has not legally commissioned any privateers since 1815, although the status of submarine-hunting Goodyear airships in the early days of World War II created significant confusion. Various accounts refer to airships Resolute and Volunteer as operating under a "privateer status", but Congress never authorized a commission, nor did the President sign one.

The issue of marque and reprisal was raised before Congress after the September 11 attacks and again on July 21, 2007, by Congressman Ron Paul. The attacks were defined as acts of "air piracy" and the Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001 was introduced, which would have granted the president the authority to use letters of marque and reprisal against the specific terrorists, instead of warring against a foreign state. The terrorists were compared to pirates in that they are difficult to fight by traditional military means. Congressman Paul on April 15, 2009, also advocated the use of letters of marque to address the issue of Somali pirates operating in the Gulf of Aden. However, the bills Congressman Paul introduced were not enacted into law.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Except that gives, to me, an undesirable outcome.

I think it's quite frankly absurd that you can have a Japan at war with China (and nobody else), the U.S. can play option 50, and happy hunting. Then, if the Japanese conquer China, and become an inactive major power, welp, suddenly we'll just stop shooting each other. Especially since it's Japan who is the one who is probably most atrsk if the U.S. plays option 50 to begin with. I mean, sure, there are workarounds, but it seems a bit silly.

I think that the Japanese player feels silly as well. Getting a huge part of his army removed and be forced to make combined moves.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

The Mils and reserves come back the second he goes back to war. And if you don't have the huge land war in China tying you down, you don't need to make all that many moves anyway. Besides, you've now got a big chunk of resources (9 shippable), and you don't need to tie down all those corps to hold the Chinese back. A few partisans are nothing next to that.

I don't often go for a conquest of China because it usually requires you to burn an O-Chit and/or take a lot of land builds and land losses, but if I can knock them out, you can be sure I'm going to do it as early as possible.

[paulderynck]

And the rule wording I suggested makes his navy attackable (and vice versa vis a vis the US) the second he goes back to war...

[Extraneous]

This discusssion revolves arround 9.9 Multiple states of war and 13.3.2 US entry options (11 US east coast escorts, 29 North Atlantic escorts, 38 Arm merchantmen) and all US units after unrestricted naval warfare is chosen (entry option 50 Unrestricted naval warfare).

In order to initiate naval combat in a sea zone major powers must be at war with each other (as per 11.5.1 Combat sequence or when intercepting using 9.9 Multiple states of war).

Who can you intercept?

ORIGINAL: WiFFE=RAW-7.0.pdf
11.4.6 Interception
Interception is a way of bringing enemy naval units to combat before they end their move. You can try to intercept a task force of enemy naval units as soon as it enters a sea area containing at least one of your faceup naval or aircraft units.

You can’t try to intercept:
• a SUB task force; or
• aircraft units flying into or through the sea area; or
• units moving from one section into a lower-numbered section of the same sea-box; or
• a task force only containing naval units you are not at war with.

Note: The it says "enemy units" which the rules define as "any major power or minor country you are at war with".



You want to use the US entry options in a naval combat?

(1) In a sea zone have a CP, naval units or NAVs of an active major power, and US naval units or NAVs.

(2) The US is now escorting allied convoys in that sea zone.

(3) The active major power initates naval combat in that sea zone and chooses the combat type.

(4) The US units now can fight in that naval combat in that sea zone.