Space Sector Preview For Distant Worlds - Universe

[VorteeX]

Erik and TEAM manage to finish expansions many times, they was always balanced, good designed and never realase until finished. Some others do this only to get money from poor players. So i'm 100% sure we get best what we can get in shortest time what is possible

[Phier]

I only picked up Distant Worlds a couple of weeks ago after about a year of knowing but not buying. Best 4x game I've played, and I started with Stars! on my Amiga 2000. The thought of it being fully moddable is outstanding.

It shouldn't have taken me so long to hear about it though, I hope you can get the word out, because I'm selfish. More people playing = more people modding

[Cauldyth]

Welcome to the best 4X game ever made. [:)]

[whiran]

The biggest thing going for Distant Worlds is its fan base.

We know that Matrix, for whatever reason, does not want to bring Distant Worlds to Steam. That needs to be accepted (regardless of what one may think of the decision) and move on from it.

With this in mind, looking at possible strategies for marketing and the one that comes to mind for me is a referral program. A good referral program works extremely well with a product that is well received and people want more of. Most strategy gamers know other strategy gamers who know more strategy gamers who know people who might want to try something new who know etc..

A good referral program encourages people to spread the word via word of mouth and increases sales dramatically if, and only if, the program rewards the legwork with something that is desired. In this case Distant Worlds - Universe. A simple program of $10 USD off per referral (who buys) that is open to everyone (regardless if they currently own the game or not) might work. I haven't spent any time looking at the situation and this is just off the cuff.

Opening the game up to pre-orders would be beneficial as well although it would cannibalize current sales at the $100 USD mark (assuming, of course, that Universe won't be sold at the $100 USD mark.)

The idea would be to build up the community in preparation to sell them other products (although I don't know how much cross over there is between distant worlds and the rest of the games sold by Matrix) and for Distant Worlds 2.

Depending on how much energy that the guys at Matrix wanted to put into it (I'd guess minimal at best to keep in line with their current methods) they could maintain a "leaderboard" of the top referrals and update it as it goes up. This would ignite the competitive spirit of a portion of the people involved.

So, what happens if someone refers enough people (who buy) to get the game for free? Should it stop there? I don't think so - allow them to build up to another free copy of the game or more. Then they could give it away.

Combine this with a focus on youtubers, twitch channels, and other localized and informal mediums with regular updates (at the pace of the current responses in this forum from Matrix types) in the forums and I'd guess that there would be an uptick in sales. Probably a lot of upswing. But, again, it depends on how much effort Matrix wishes to devote to this one product.

This is just one title out of an awful lot in Matrix's stable.

Matrix is blessed with this title in that it sells itself.

If I were to guess on what they will actually do it'll go like this: release a pre-copy to Space Sector, maybe send something to Rock, Papers, Shotgun, and be done with it. Oh, they might "release" some sort of information here in the forums (a sticky saying Universe is now available) and they might "promote" the game on the main Matrix page. I write might because sometimes they skip that for their own products. They might advertise the game in Germany (I think they've done some advertising in some physical medium there - a gaming magazine or something?) as well depending how "ambitious" they want to be.

[Spidey]

Just to elaborate a bit for those who haven't ever done any programming...

It's not at all like building a brick wall or installing a new kitchen, unless we're talking about replication projects that involve strictly known features in a well-known environment performed by people who have done this kind of thing several times before. Even then there's some risk of unforeseen issues or feature creep. That last thing describes a situation where, during the project, the requirements of the project end up getting expanded. Think of it as starting out with the installation of a low end classic kitchen and suddenly having to make it have all the features a modern high tech kitchen AND a living room. And even that is a minor understatement because a kitchen is tangible. What you see is what you have to work with.

Programming is essentially the engineering of some functionality based on logic and cascading assumptions and described linguistically in code. And when I say "code", what I mean is an abstract language with a tremendously unforgiving grammar nazi kicking your ass if you make even the tiniest mistake anywhere. Does anyone here write English 100% correctly? Now imagine having to write thousands of lines in English without screwing up the grammar or making a logical mistake anywhere. No mind slips, no key slips, no swapping two numbers, no wrong references, and no ambiguous wording.

That's the challenge of programming. Now add to the mix that game development usually involves some form of innovation, a huge variety of different target systems, a whole bunch of different technologies (sound, graphics, physics, AI), something that ties everything together coherently, and on top of that mod-friendly games have to compile user-made stuff into the game without going too much FUBAR if any given resource looks "odd". Knowing everything about one programming language is fairly mean challenge. Knowing everything about that language and all the other technologies in use? Good luck with that.


TL;DR: Don't bash programmers too much for not being very good at predicting their completion dates. It's not an easy task at all. It's like predicting how much time it's going to take to do a weekend project before finding out that your in-laws will be staying for a little while. Some factors just aren't very predictable. Instead of accusing programmers of being incompetent, one should thank them for taking the time to get things done right. Not all of them do and it is *such* a pain in the backside when they don't.

[Spidey]

We know that Matrix, for whatever reason, does not want to bring Distant Worlds to Steam. That needs to be accepted (regardless of what one may think of the decision) and move on from it.

The reasons are fairly obvious, I think. The pricing on Steam is tremendously lower and there's always a bunch of games on sale, which means DW would look prohibitively expensive by comparison and possibly generate negative PR. Nobody would buy an "old" 2D game for $40 or more and DW is really at its finest when it does have all the expansions included. In other words, the price would have to be dropped a whole lot and after Valve's cut the income per unit sold would be tiny.

With this in mind, looking at possible strategies for marketing and the one that comes to mind for me is a referral program. A good referral program works extremely well with a product that is well received and people want more of. Most strategy gamers know other strategy gamers who know more strategy gamers who know people who might want to try something new who know etc..

A good referral program encourages people to spread the word via word of mouth and increases sales dramatically if, and only if, the program rewards the legwork with something that is desired. In this case Distant Worlds - Universe. A simple program of $10 USD off per referral (who buys) that is open to everyone (regardless if they currently own the game or not) might work.

Two words. PONZI SCHEME!!! [:)]

I'm personally not a fan of referral programs and similar schemes where users get a financial incentive to convince other people to buy something. It results in exaggerated recommendations and unhappy buyers, who will then try to get some of their money back by talking other people to buy the game. Good for Matrix and Code Force, but also something that ought to earn them a whole stack of dark side points.

Depending on how much energy that the guys at Matrix wanted to put into it (I'd guess minimal at best to keep in line with their current methods) they could maintain a "leaderboard" of the top referrals and update it as it goes up. This would ignite the competitive spirit of a portion of the people involved.

I'm sorry, man, but this is even worse. Now we're making a sport out of paying customers competing to make other people buy a game regardless of whether the game actually appeals to those other people. I, for one, would really, really, *really* like to see this not happening. Just my personal opinion, mind you. [;)]

So, what happens if someone refers enough people (who buy) to get the game for free? Should it stop there? I don't think so - allow them to build up to another free copy of the game or more. Then they could give it away.

Why, hello there total Ponzi Scheme. Can you imagine just how terrible this could get in terms of PR? Paying gamers to use whatever means to get other gamers to buy the game? You know, if Matrix goes this path then I'm not sure I'll buy Universe. I'm just not very good at going dark side.

[Gregorovitch55]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Incidentally, I've watched a few of Angry Joe's reviews as well - I hope that he and many other reviewers will take a look at Distant Worlds: Universe. However, it's always worth pointing out that the budget for Distant Worlds is nowhere near his favorites with the Total War series. As long as the more mainstream reviewers keep that perspective, accept the 2D graphics and focus on the gameplay, I think they'll love it. We'd be happy to give him a preview or review copy.

Regards,

- Erik

I would send Quill18 and Arumba a preview asap, Erik, or at least when Banished-mania has died down a bit, lol. They don't give a toss about graphics, just gameplay and value for money. Maybe Shenryyr2. They will also agree to whatever release conditions you need etc.

[Icemania]

I wasn't aware of them Gregorovitch55, cheers, will have a look at their past reviews.

[Icemania]

Quill18 already did Distant Worlds Legends. TotalBiscuit and/or Angry Joe would provide roughly an order of magnitude more views ...

[Gregorovitch55]

Indeed, almost exactly an order of magnitude - TB's got 1.5m subs vs Quill's 140k. I'm not sure he would do DW justice though since I think he'll put in about 6-10 hours max on a game and it doesn't seem to me like that's enough to even scratch the surface of DW. What could he say? "Man, this is so xxxxx massive I'm TotallyLostHere?" Also by no means all his followers are into high end strategy gaming, lol. I'm inclined to think a good specialist LP with reasonable exposure is what's needed to draw people into this game rather than a review. Das does a good job, but he's only got 10k subs, Quill has 140k and he must be getting bored of EUIV and Civ5 by now, and he did promise to take another peek at DW when the consolidated package came out in the previous review.

Arumba's got 50k subs and his tag line is "I enjoy strategy games, 4x, RPGs, etc; games that make you think."

Zemalf has 30k subs and he might well be interested too ["I create slow-paced let's play videos for fun, sharing them with those who enjoy slower and more "serious" gameplay"]. He's a sort of Finnish Larry Monte in his style and he's done, for example, a 24 part tutorial series on Dwarf Fortress (avg 30 mins per episode). He would do a fantastic job on DW if the fancy took him.

So those guys alone would reach about 20 times as many people as Das: it'd be a start anyway.

[Osito]

Quill and Arumba are probably the best ones. I agree this probably isn't quite TB's thing. It's questionable whether it's Angry Joe's thing either, as he is not (by his own admission) a great 'grand strategy game' fan, although he has recently expressed an interest in getting into the genre. Hard to believe Matrix are not on top of these options, as these sites are ones that most game marketers must be aware of.

Osito

[Tcby]

TB has stated a couple times in the past that he doesn't feature grand strategy games, because they aren't appropriate for his first impression format.

[Icemania]

After looking at their reviews, Quill and Arumba should be considered essential by Matrix. As has been said they provide 20x more exposure than Das.

Some good comments and legitimate concerns with TotalBiscuit and Angry Joe. Until now, I had never heard of Quill and Arumba. TotalBiscuit and Angry Joe provide > 2.9M subscribers ... 290x more exposure than Das. So while there is clearly risk, given the reward, the question should at least be asked ... could it be made to work with Universe?

How about suggesting they play with settings using the smallest galaxy with the fastest research and also starting in a more developed galaxy? Do any of you play this way?

Also it would be essential to ensure Universe has vastly improved Tutorials (to help them get started), Automation (so when they start to turn manual off the suggestions are more sensible) and Galactopedia (rather than so many starting by spending time reviewing forums posts for hints).

[Gregorovitch55]

TotalBuiscuit frequently does something with a game that has generated some "buzz" or interest elsewhere in which case his approach is slightly different in that he will often fairly reflect some of the reasons for the "buzz" (i.e. other peoples opinions) as well as his own impressions of the game.

Quill has had a lot to do with the unbelievable and unexpected success of Banished: he did one of his per-release "Let's Try.." vids on it and by popular demand continued with it into a two or three full LP's. Other strategy game specialists, like ShenryyR2, picked up on this and started banished LP's as well. TB picked it up on the buzz and did a "WTF is"? shortly after, probably a bit more positive than it might otherwise have been.

I think you have a good point, Icemania, that setting up a game with a smaller and more developed Galaxy might help people appreciate what this game is about. DW games seem to develop compelling narrative and tension, but only after a long lead in. A lot of Das's LPs only really get to this stage after 8-10 30 min episodes. I think if Quill or Arumba got some personal experience of just how compelling the narrative and tense the situation can become in a DW game they would definitely want to share that with their audience - it's just the time problem.

Sorry, just to add this: one the key reasons Banished grabbed so much attention is that it is compelling, arguably at its most compelling, right from the get-go. This is I think why there was so much demand for Quill to continue to a full LP from his initial Let's Try - people were on the edge of their seats to know what happens next. This is obviously not the case with DW. People like complexity, options, scope and so on, but does all this lead to the kind of mind-blowing gaming experience to justify that learning curve? To answer that, IMO, is the key.

[feygan]

A problem I see with folks like TB and Angry Joe would be a case of horses and stable doors. DW has been out for a fair amount of time now and developed a lot since the initial release. To give a review on the game because of a new expansion could cause some problems. First and foremost being cost, since Matrix have not graced us their loyal customers with any concept of a pricing strategy I will use the information available to me and anyone else. The fact is to review DW:U means telling folks that to play the exact thing the reviewer is playing they are going to have to shell out £67.15 for the digital only version. That is a hell of a lot of cash by anyone's standards, even more so when you consider that this is pretty much an unknown game in the pc gaming community at large. I also haven't included what cost the universe expansion will be in that.

When even the largest game publishers are getting slammed each and every month for the pricing of their products you need to have something very special to ask for more than your competition. Also this expansion really seems to offer very little in as far as game play features go, this is just an assumption based on the meager scraps of information Matrix has chosen to release. For long term fans and folks who have an idea for a mod but haven't found the right game to implement it the expansion offers lots, but it will unlikely draw extra customers to the brand. There lies the issue for a reviewer, how do they sum up a review on a product in a positive light when they are really just seeing some new bells. If civilization had only a small handful of reviews until the release of the Brave New World, and then dished it out for the masses to review I do not think it would of been drawing new players to itself as well as it has done with an initial game review then further ones for each expansion.

I could be wrong and it could work out well as a marketing method but it looks like Matrix have missed this boat by a long time and it would leave readers/viewers asking themselves "why haven't I heard of this before" and "why does it cost so much". Not the ideal thoughts you want in your potential customers heads.

[whiran]

Spidey, I don't think you understand what a Ponzi Scheme is. For reference check out these links:

http://www.sec.gov/answers/ponzi.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

It's cool that you don't like referral programs and that they make you feel uncomfortable. No worries there. I have to wonder what you think about giving the game away to select individuals who then try and sell others on the merits of the game which is exactly what is being discussed by giving the game to certain youtubers.

I think a campaign of selective targeting of small to medium Youtubers combined with Twitch streamers can be remarkably effective. But, the success will also be determined on the price positioning of the game. If the game still comes in at the $100 USD mark or above it then there may be some market reaction based solely on the price.

As an aside, just because something is on Steam does not mean it needs to be cheap.

The current top sellers on Steam (and have been for some time) are:

South Park: The Stick of Truth - $60
DayZ, Early Access Discount Pricing, $30
Dark Souls II - $50

Wasteland 2 was a top seller for a while at $60 and it is Early Access.
Planetary Annihilation was a top ten seller when it was priced at $90 USD and it is also in Early Access.

Here is an interesting tidbit. Sid Meier's Civilization V: Complete Edition, priced at $50 USD continues to sell well on Steam (currently top 20 sales ranking) as does The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim - Legendary Edition at $60 USD. These games show that games on Steam can have a long tail (an extended period of the game selling in volume) even when not being discounted all of the time.


The idea that Steam caters solely to discounted games is a misnomer. A good game will sell at what is perceived to be a good price. That price perception is a result of the marketing effort for the game. I'm certain that this game would do fine on Steam at the $60 USD mark. Maybe even at the $100 USD mark that it currently commands.

The problem with Steam for Matrix is that it takes a cut (typically 30%) of each sale and dilutes the brand. Matrix has made a decision to create their own marketplace for their games which is fine - this is an observation based on responses from the various Matrix folk in regards to selling games on Steam. They don't want to share and, instead, appear more interested in growing their market organically. With this in mind, marketing ideas should revolve around the apparent desired goal of growing the Matrix (or is it Slitherine? way to confuse their own brand - pick one and stick with it please) market.

[Gregorovitch55]

ORIGINAL: whiran

I think a campaign of selective targeting of small to medium Youtubers combined with Twitch streamers can be remarkably effective. But, the success will also be determined on the price positioning of the game. If the game still comes in at the $100 USD mark or above it then there may be some market reaction based solely on the price.

Quite right IMO. You definitely don't want Quill starting a video about DW:U saying "It's expensive" like he did last time. You want him saying "You're getting the game plus all three expansions here, good value for money." $100 is completely out of the ball park here, a total non-runner. Skyrim and Civ5 can continue to command a $60 price tag because they are rock solid triple-A franchises arguably best-of-breed in their very popular genres. DW may be a best-of-breed space 4X too, but the people you want to reach don't know that. It's got nothing to do with whether DW:U is actually worth $100 or $60 per se, it's to do with what else people can buy with their $100 or $60 - and the answer, armed with a Steam account, is a hell of a lot. That's the issue. I seriously doubt Quill, for example, would call DW:U value for money at a cent over 40$

[Maponus]

So - since this is March I assume it'll be out any day now?

Right?

[Cauldyth]

Sure, and it's almost 2015, so we get hoverboards and flying DeLoreans soon too, right? [;)]

[Flinkebeinchen]

So Panzer Corps is on Steam now and they already reduced the price. I hope the sales go well and maybe we can get DW:Universe on Steam too.