Why did 5 British units Surrender?

[jack54]

Ok, my, admittedly slow, plan comes to a crashing halt as 5 British units in Sapri surrender.

I don't think it's a bug I just don't know 'Why'. Supply was good. I held the forces there to keep the German armor to the south pinned. I was expecting the Germans to surrender any turn,then
ouch! see below image...

[jack54]

Sorry I tried but No saves can be posted here[:(]

[FrankHunter]

Hi Jack, did your Brits lose a battle in that hex? Because it looks like there's no valid retreat path.

You can if you wish send the autosave to me at fhunter@telus.net

[jack54]

Yes the Germans did attack... I replayed the turn and Brits won the battle and no units surrendered so they probably lost the previous play attempt. Thanks mystery solved!

[Toby42]

It still is almost impossible that five divisions would surrender! I realize that this is a game, but come on. Not a very realistic outcome???

[jack54]

Ok I sent the saves for Frank to look at and see what happened.


@FrankHunter saves are sent [:)]

[tombo]

i wonder if it had something to do with the hex stacking limits...i had a similar event, the GERs attacked a port hex that i had with near full capacity, but i was moving a DIV out while i was also landing more AMPH force...the GER launched and lost the battle to the hex, but i surrendered 2 USA DIV.

maybe that helps.

[Toby42]

If they can't retreat they should take extra losses or disruption, or something! Multiple divisions surrendering doesn't seem right!

[jack54]

ORIGINAL: Treale

If they can't retreat they should take extra losses or disruption, or something! Multiple divisions surrendering doesn't seem right!

I agree...especially when you consider the scale, each turn being only a few days. If they were in poor supply I could understand it better but these units were ok.

[Toby42]

This kind of hurts the "Validity" of the game. I don't think that anywhere in history has 5 British Divisions ever surrendered? Especially in the time frame of the game! There were some mass German surrenders towards the end of the war, but that was after a long campaign (Ruhr?).

[FrankHunter]

Well, it was 3 divisions plus an infantry brigade and a commando unit. Pretty much equivalent to the surrender of British forces at Singapore.

But that's neither here nor there. For me the thing is, should invasions be able to be defeated?

For example, in France some in the German high command believed that a unit like the 21st Panzer could attack a beachhead and drive the invaders into the sea. Or the experience of Dieppe where a single division was pretty much wiped out on the beach.

As I'm working on that campaign, should the German player be able to believe he can defend the coast or should invasions be considered a given?

I know an invasion against a defended beach is already hazardous in the game so the invader does get increased firepower to represent naval support so it has a better chance of winning the battle even though its own losses could still be high. And landings are fought at a higher intensity so as to produce a decision.

In this case 3 divisions plus an infantry brigade and a commando unit were defeated and had nowhere to retreat. Perhaps if it had been a single infantry brigade that had been eliminated it wouldn't have been an issue?

In this case I think the size of the force is the issue. Its not about whether smaller invasion forces should be able to be defeated because I think they should be.

Two options spring to mind, one, the defeated Allied forces could be pulled back off the beach and returned to Sicily, and two, they could remain in the beach hex but incur a level of increased disruption that would reflect an enemy force essentially splitting their forces and reaching the sea. This would leave them very vulnerable to a second turn of being attacked but give the player the option of evacuating or reinforcing.

I haven't had the chance yet to replay Jack's game but I will do that today. I hadn't seen such a large force defeated in a landing before so I'd like to see what happened. I'm assuming the Brits rolled the equivalent of "snake eyes" as far as luck goes?


Thank you for the comments!

[Toby42]

It's refreshing to see a developer willing to look at a game from a players perspective. I guess that we all are amateur historians! Or think that we are [:)]

[jack54]

Thanks for looking at this Frank, As I've mentioned while 'replaying' the turn 'the British won the battle' and there were no surrenders. So snake-eyes played a role I'm sure.

[tombo]

In my game, i liked that the AI attacked my forces at the port i just invaded the turn before. It was coordinated from 3 hexes and forced 2 full strength US DIV to surrender. [X(] It was a surprise and game changer. Things just got difficult for allies. I lost the game but it was fun.

From above, I suggest, if new forces are landing at time of combat, that they return to Sicily but at great losses. Any forces that had already landed (turn before) take huge disruption or surrender.

just 2C

[jack54]

ORIGINAL: tombo

In my game, i liked that the AI attacked my forces at the port i just invaded the turn before. It was coordinated from 3 hexes and forced 2 full strength US DIV to surrender. [X(] It was a surprise and game changer. Things just got difficult for allies. I lost the game but it was fun.

From above, I suggest, if new forces are landing at time of combat, that they return to Sicily but at great losses. Any forces that had already landed (turn before) take huge disruption or surrender.

just 2C

I like that the AI attacked the port also; it gives me something else to think about now. I prefer the AI be aggressive. In reality I should have been more aggressive also. Losing the forces, while not technically feasible within the turn timeframe, is not a game breaker for me.I still really enjoy the game and hope this thread doesn't discourage anybody from purchasing it.

Funny thing is;I never questioned when enemy forces surrendered! LoL

[Toby42]

ORIGINAL: jack54

ORIGINAL: tombo

In my game, i liked that the AI attacked my forces at the port i just invaded the turn before. It was coordinated from 3 hexes and forced 2 full strength US DIV to surrender. [X(] It was a surprise and game changer. Things just got difficult for allies. I lost the game but it was fun.

From above, I suggest, if new forces are landing at time of combat, that they return to Sicily but at great losses. Any forces that had already landed (turn before) take huge disruption or surrender.

just 2C

I like that the AI attacked the port also; it gives me something else to think about now. I prefer the AI be aggressive. In reality I should have been more aggressive also. Losing the forces, while not technically feasible within the turn timeframe, is not a game breaker for me.I still really enjoy the game and hope this thread doesn't discourage anybody from purchasing it.

Funny thing is;I never questioned when enemy forces surrendered! LoL

I agree that it's a neat game! It needs a little tweaking, I haven't come across any bugs that are game breakers? I'm still not sold on the wholesale multiple division surrenders. especially in the time frame represented?

[Szilard]

I think a "drive them back into the sea" invasion defeat should be represented by (a) the units taking heavy losses and disruption (b) the units teleporting back to their embarkation point (c) degrading of amphib capability, shipping & naval support for some period. IRL surely the navy would have done everything it could to re-embark troops, probably putting itself very much in harm's way & probably littering the beach with all sorts of landing craft.

Something like this should definitely be a possible outcome for a France 44 game. And their should be some kind of chance for the Kriegsmarine to inflict further mayhem on the retreating force.

Apart from being a realistic edge case for a screwed up/very unlucky invasion attempt, without some possibility of this kind of scenario the game would surely lack the tension of the real thing & suffer as a game. But on the other hand a mess surrender of the whole invading force would IMO go a step too far - it's really hard to imagine anything so screwed up in real life.

[FrankHunter]

The odds of this happening were very extreme, I wasn't able to reproduce it at all without actually going in and forcing it to happen.

In my post above I had assumed the invasion itself had been thwarted but that wasn't the case. This was a post-invasion counterattack by the German AI. If it had happened as part of a landing the invading forces would have been evacuated back to Sicily.

Although what happened was a one in a thousand type thing the result was still too extreme. I've now changed the code so that the defenders don't have to retreat if they can't and instead the casualties and disruption taken are doubled. But I'm not set on that, I'll experiment with this rule change for a bit.

Thank you for the input!

[jack54]

Thanks again for looking into this situation. The fix seems reasonable IMHO, It's a pleasure to see a developer interact with the community.

[tombo]

Of a little different topic but related...one thing i feel is needed is Air Recon to select hexes (by player) prior to amphib invasion. Right now the player acts blindly and seems un-realistic prior to invade. once air superiority is made...player should get a few chances to uncover FOG.

Yes?