Air target priorities

Dean Robb · Post by **Dean Robb** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 7:17 am

Is there any way to keep air from attacking vehicles over troops? Was testing the General Order #1 scenario (available in the Depot...download it now!) and would call in B-17s to blast the columns of troops coming down the road only to have the Forts veer WAY off course to bomb a damn halftrack.

Can we set a target priority here?

Also...shouldn't planes with large bombloads drop on more than just two hexes? I'd think a string of 4 or so if I'm dropping some 8+ bombs.

Pack Rat · Post by **Pack Rat** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 7:50 am

With out having played the scenario I'll take a stab here. A bunch of things can come into play. Aircraft angle, can they see the intended target well. AA fire, is the aircraft supressed. Can the FO see the target, this is a guess on my part but I would think aircraft might be handled a bit like artillery accuracy. Aircraft skill level probably comes into play at least hitting the target not sure about picking the target. Probably some others that escape me for the moment.

There was a time in the Steel Panthers history when aircraft blindly flew to the target hex. There could be forty damn targets all around that hex, but that aircraft wouldn't move one bit towards them. I don't recall which version finally changed this, but I was glad to see it. I'm with you though when you call in a strike on that strong point and the damn thing blows up a truck in the rear it can be frustrating. Those 17's are sure murder though.

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PR
http://electricwar.tripod.com/

Dedas · Post by **Dedas** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 5:59 pm

The planes should use the hex you targetted as the primary target, if there isnt a unit there the plane should search the hexes nearby. (this is what I think...!)

As we all know this isnt the case...

We need some changes here maties!

Lars Remmen · Post by **Lars Remmen** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 6:28 pm

Originally posted by Dedas:
The planes should use the hex you targetted as the primary target, if there isnt a unit there the plane should search the hexes nearby. (this is what I think...!)

As we all know this isnt the case...
We need some changes here maties!

So, a Typhoon comes in towards the target hex at 350 mph. By the time the pilot realizes that there are no targets in the area it is way too late to look around for a new target. And even if he did see one he probably couldn't alter his course fast enough to make a pass with any chance of success.

But I have said it before and will again: It would be great if we could have two different air attack modes. One as the air support work now with the pilots going after the targets easy to spot and presigious to kill. And one mode to allow the player to say: Bomb hex x,y (or as close as you can) no matter what targets you should otherwise see - a bit like in SP1.

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Lars
Nec Temere - Nec Timide

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 2:50 am

"So, a Typhoon comes in towards the target hex at 350 mph. By the time the pilot realizes that there are no targets in the area it is way too late to look around for a new target. And even if he did see one he probably couldn't alter his course fast enough to make a pass with any chance of success."
Very true. There's also the Positive ID issue as well; WAS that REALLY a Panther I just saw? Further away from the FEBA it's not an issue IRL, but since in the SPWAW world all airstrikes are CAS, this is actually a realistic way to simulate target ID problems. Another issue is the way FOs (FACs actually) direct the strike: There's no target marking for the FO/FAC to "talk" the striker on to. If this is abstracted, then it's not done too well. A target marking routine that would increase the chances of the airstrike hitting the targets YOU designate would alleviate this problem and still give one the frustration of seeing your CAS missions hitting the wrong spot-also RL...

"But I have said it before and will again: It would be great if we could have two different air attack modes. One as the air support work now with the pilots going after the targets easy to spot and presigious to kill. And one mode to allow the player to say: Bomb hex x,y (or as close as you can) no matter what targets you should otherwise see - a bit like in SP1."
In another post, discussion ensued about B17s going away to be replaced by a possible "level bomber" airstrike. If so, then what you propose is EXACTLY how these aircraft were used. These missions were all pre=planned based on geography, either an easily ID'd terrain feature or a "kill box".
In order to accurately simulate these weapon systems, their missions should be fixed at game start. No way could a battalion CP request such a strike and get it approved, and bombers diverted in 1-2 hours of game time (not to mention briefing crews on FEBA, enemy threat etc).

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 8:11 am

Yes - all true, but the much maligned new level bombers will attack the vicinity of the target hex you select, not a unit. You must target them during the pre-planned bombardment and assign a turn they will enter.

You can decide if that is an improvement or a "bunch of crap" that only a bunch of whiners want...

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:18 am

I'll take it and enjoy it...WB
======================

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 2:20 pm

Sounds good... Will they be generic for all countries, bombing from so high you won't see them, thus not needing icons and freeing up much needed OOB slots?

Thornado · Post by **Thornado** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 5:20 pm

Seems like the highaltitude bombers at last is going to work in a more reaslistic manner. Assigning a B-26 or B-17 against a single target seemed like a tad bit of overkill.

Excellent that you have to assign a target hex and a entranceturn. This adds a new layer to the battleplanning.... "Hmm, how am I to lure his main Infantrybody to stay in that wood for another three turns, so my Big Ones can bomb the sh*t out of 'em?"

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Thornado
- You'll never know what hit you -

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:57 pm

They are more like artillery now - you hear the drone of engines and whistle of the bombs and the booms, but no icons, and a fair variety of numbers and types of bomb loads, so you buy the bomb load you want and don;t care what platforms the Flyboys have to use to deleiver it. Each "mission" covers a "box" between 200x 200 yards to about 350x350 depending on the type. That was pretty much the way such assets were assigned.

They are probaly too accurate, but making them fall too wildly and nobody would buy them...As it is they are a bit difficult to use, but when they work...BOY DO THEY WORK

[This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited March 01, 2001).]

timc · Post by **timc** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:27 pm

Sounds good to me. It will eliminate the curious "B-17 diving to attack" message as well as small-caliber AAA and even small arms hitting and shooting down level bombers. These level bombers should be immune to AA, right? Or are large calber weapons (88 AA, 90mm, 3in etc) going to shoot at them?

lnp4668 · Post by **lnp4668** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:57 pm

Interesting question Timc. Maybe the bigger AA gun could operate in counter battery mode against the bomber since the level bomber are not on the map |-)

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:24 pm

Originally posted by Wild Bill:
I'll take it and enjoy it...WB
======================

He'll take it and we'll be at the sharp end of it. As if WB doesn't have enough "toys" to make his scenarios cunning and darn near impossible to win.

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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

ZinZan · Post by **ZinZan** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 1:32 am

Sounds like an excellent solution to the problem of B17's low level bombing. I'm all in favour of this one. more realistic, encourages and rewards good planning and frees up OOB slots. great idea

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peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 5:17 am

"You can decide if that is an improvement or a 'bunch of crap' that only a bunch of whiners want..."
Improvement!
Though, I'm not one of those control-freak I-have-to-do-everything-even-though-it's-not-a-good-simulation-of-reality types either. I suspect you will need some cheese for them

Igor · Post by **Igor** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 10:57 am

"These level bombers should be immune to AA, right? Or are large calber weapons (88 AA, 90mm, 3in etc) going to shoot at them?"

They should. Tactical bombing, to the extent that a four engine bomber did so, might be high enough to avoid light AA; but flying above the "heavy" guns would make hitting the designated target all but impossible. Depending on the cloud cover, the 37-40mm guns may get a piece of the action as well; but if the bombers have to fly low enough to be hit by the 20s they would probably just fly home...

[This message has been edited by Igor (edited March 02, 2001).]

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:03 am

Hi, I won't mind if a B-17 drops several tons of bombs, but I always seem to attract stuka or Tomahawk or what ever type bomber that drops 8-12 bombs per attack? ( I once was attacked by 24 Stukas each dropping 12 bombs, my gallent Battle group looked at me (the few left standing) and said "See ya"

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

lnp4668 · Post by **lnp4668** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:52 pm

Have anyone seems to notice that a mass of AAMgs are much more effective against aircrafts in the current version of spwaw than dedicate AA? Do anyone knows the historic statistics for this? In the Vietnam war, it was much more difficult to brings down aircrafts with small arms fire as compared to larger AA. How was it with WW2?

Gallo Rojo · Post by **Gallo Rojo** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 8:42 pm

I think that Level Bombers are an improvement.

I think that combination of Level and Tactical Bomber is much more realistic that what the only choice that we have now.

Having said, that I like to do a couple of questions:

Will enemy air superiority and bad time affect Level Bombers availability just like they do with the other tactical planes right now?

An about tactical bombers (i.e. Typhoon):
Don’t you think that some times they see more that they should?
I mean:

A Stuka gets into the attack and localize a large column of T-34 rolling in a road and attack them. Great. That’s that it should be.

A Typhoon gets into the attack and localize a Panther that is on the open ground although there is smoke around. Fine. I can accept that.

But... a P-47 drives into the attack and localize and attack a JPIV that is stationary in a leafy wood ... uhm... Is this realistic? ... This tank should be very well camouflaged and be very difficult to see from the air...

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 9:36 pm

But... a P-47 drives into the attack and localize and attack a JPIV that is stationary in a leafy wood ... uhm... Is this realistic? ... This tank should be very well camouflaged and be very difficult to see from the air..."
It depends. If the FAC noticed the vehicle moving into the woods, he could talk the P47 to the woods with instructions to hit whatever's in there-assuming no friendlies close by. Very realistic.
On the other hand, if this is a target of opportunity, then yes you have a point, unless the FAC's instructions were "hit that grove of trees" in order to flush out any threats there.