GJ (Allies) - Mr.Kane (Japan) - The allies declare their defeat

[GreyJoy]

Another big strategic mistake of mine that I now see is the following:

It's impossible to think to advance on a Burma-DEI vector and on a CENTPAC one without having in mind the real goal to unite these two vectors.
Basically, doing what I did (so to say: concentrate all my major assets in the DEI-SRA advance), means that you're gonna be too stretched on supplies and you're gonna do without any serious repair shipyard.
Why? Because in DBB India produces very little supplies. Basically not enough to support a real late war massive offensive.
The supplies need to be brought up from the western coast to Oz and from Oz to the DEI...a LONG journey...
CT has probably enough (barely) of them, but very few tons of fuel are brought there...
Then the absence of any major repair yard means that, once a major ship is damaged, it's gonna be out of the war for a looooooong time. Much longer than if you used the western coast yards.
Colombo is too small...and it gets crowded too soon.
Sydney has the very same problem, and CT isn't that better.
Say a BB gets 30 flt damage fighting near Singapore... you need to ship it back to Colombo first (which normally is already crowded by damaged CVEs, APAs and CL/DDs), then to CT...and from there to eastern coast... all these movements easily takes a couple of months...plus the repair works...plus the trip back...[8|]

If you really want to strangle the empire, and you want to do a double-vector attack (DEI and Pacific), I think you really need to make a plan that, sooner better than later, makes the two vectors combine.

[Cribtop]

Fascinating game with a bummer of a conclusion for you, GJ. Mr. Kane has proven in several games that he knows his stuff.

While I do concur that uniting the vectors is a good plan strategically, I would argue that your main problems in this game were tactical. The combination of a stacking limit optimized ground defense and the very effective use of the supercharged Japanese economy to produce crazy numbers of late war fightprod resulted in nuts you couldn't crack, and those nuts would have been present regardless of the vector(s) chosen for the advance. I am not experienced enough with the Allied side to suggest a solution, but I will certainly try to think of one. Massed 4E night bombing comes to mind, but I know you are opposed to that, and given the game engine's issues with night bombing I don't entirely blame you.

It also seems in several recent games that the limitations of the now common Allied assault into the DEI are showing, or at least that good Japanese players are learning counters. Imperials have also learned (in large part thanks to you) to fortify the northern approach. Perhaps it is time for the Allies to re-visit the middle of the map - one advantage to the Pacific theaters is the ability to isolate an island base and destroy it. CENPAC requires late war Allied goodies to pull off, but it is a short route to Japan. The men in green have also had success with overland campaigns into China, but that would not have worked in this case.

Finally, I continue to wonder whether the game would work better if the "bounce" was just removed entirely. While altitude gave a real life advantage, it just seems overdone. Not trying to re-start an ancient argument here, but once P-51s are losing to anything with a prop it seems like things are out of whack.

As always you are a great sport and an excellent player. Chin up and fight on in the next game!

[Cribtop]

Ok, now that the game is over I popped into Mr. Kane's AAR. I think you should do so as well and perhaps talk to him in a debriefing. It appears that several of your assumptions were incorrect due to fog of war. He believed Singapore desperately vulnerable to ground attack as it was only defended by one division. Further, his fighter pools were almost empty, supplies were becoming a concern, and the next line in the PI had much lower forts than the DEI line. I understand your decision to throw in the towel, and Japan was still a long way away for Feb '45, but you were closer to a breakthrough than you believed.

[Lokasenna]

I concur with Cribtop.

I admit I've mostly been skimming your AAR, as I think you put up a lot of posts in a row a couple of times while I was out of town or otherwise not regularly checking the forums, so maybe my perception is off. But basically: why was it necessary to go "all in" for Singapore, Palembang, and Batavia? Why not just skip them, while keeping them isolated? I understand the need for a shipyard (how big is Soerabaja's? It's easier to take than Batavia due to terrain)... I don't know. I just think maybe there's a reminder in here for the rest of us to just go around the big thorny patch sometimes. This may not have even been one of those times, but it's worth thinking about.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I concur with Cribtop.

I admit I've mostly been skimming your AAR, as I think you put up a lot of posts in a row a couple of times while I was out of town or otherwise not regularly checking the forums, so maybe my perception is off. But basically: why was it necessary to go "all in" for Singapore, Palembang, and Batavia? Why not just skip them, while keeping them isolated? I understand the need for a shipyard (how big is Soerabaja's? It's easier to take than Batavia due to terrain)... I don't know. I just think maybe there's a reminder in here for the rest of us to just go around the big thorny patch sometimes. This may not have even been one of those times, but it's worth thinking about.

Just a brief note before leaving town...

I tried to bypass those strongpoints, and i tried to simply isolatethem and bomb to oblivion. The problem was that, with the reduced effect pf the 500lb GP bomb, high forts and what seemed to be an unlimited number of supplies those bases couldn't simply be bypasses. The air threat was simply too big. My CAP was unable to provide any decent cover for my TFs, due to the impossibility to defend against His sweeps. If you bypass a base like Singapore you have to be sure that that base is dead, like the allies did with Truk in RL. Otherwise, sooner or later, 2000 planes will pop up there attacking your TFs...and you cannot always use the CVs as escort.


T me that was a forced choice rather than an option

[khyberbill]

but once P-51s are losing to anything with a prop it seems like things are out of whack.

I have a concern with this issue as well. In my recent PBEM that reached 11/45 the P-51 was not doing well. Only the P47N seemed to more than hold it's own. And I was trying to follow all the advice on the forum such as varying altitudes, rested pilots, high EXP etc.

[Cribtop]

Yeah, I just watched a show in which pilots described the P-51D as "the perfect plane." I also remember a documentary on modern air racing and one of the most common planes used in racing is a restored P-51 due to its excellent combo of speed and maneuverability. By all accounts it was the ultimate air superiority fighter of the pre-jet age.

GJ, have you tried a game with Symon's air mod yet? I hear good things but haven't tried it myself yet.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I concur with Cribtop.

I admit I've mostly been skimming your AAR, as I think you put up a lot of posts in a row a couple of times while I was out of town or otherwise not regularly checking the forums, so maybe my perception is off. But basically: why was it necessary to go "all in" for Singapore, Palembang, and Batavia? Why not just skip them, while keeping them isolated? I understand the need for a shipyard (how big is Soerabaja's? It's easier to take than Batavia due to terrain)... I don't know. I just think maybe there's a reminder in here for the rest of us to just go around the big thorny patch sometimes. This may not have even been one of those times, but it's worth thinking about.

Just a brief note before leaving town...

I tried to bypass those strongpoints, and i tried to simply isolatethem and bomb to oblivion. The problem was that, with the reduced effect pf the 500lb GP bomb, high forts and what seemed to be an unlimited number of supplies those bases couldn't simply be bypasses. The air threat was simply too big. My CAP was unable to provide any decent cover for my TFs, due to the impossibility to defend against His sweeps. If you bypass a base like Singapore you have to be sure that that base is dead, like the allies did with Truk in RL. Otherwise, sooner or later, 2000 planes will pop up there attacking your TFs...and you cannot always use the CVs as escort.


T me that was a forced choice rather than an option

That all makes sense. I think you were forced into the choice due to time constraints? Mr. Kane seems an elite opponent. I'm glad now that I'm playing the people I'm playing rather than taking him up on his offer several months ago when my first Allies PBEM closed [;)].

Because you can always make sure to reroute around these points/remain under LRCAP umbrellas. For Truk, that means rerouting north and covering via Wake/Saipan/Tinian or south with cover from Hollandia/Peleliu. Eventually, Truk will be out of range for any fighter aircraft to fly there, and any fighters there will be stuck, at which point the danger lessens a bit.

For Singapore, that means continuing to route your stuff around the Borneo/Celebes area while avoiding the Sumatra area. Same deal here with the out of range to transfer, but it's much much much harder to do than with Truk, as that means you pretty much have to capture all of Thailand, Indochina, Borneo/Sarawak, and some of the PI.

[khyberbill]

In the game the P-51D is comparable in combat to the P-40K with longer range. When was the last time you saw a special on the P-40K?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Another big strategic mistake of mine that I now see is the following:

It's impossible to think to advance on a Burma-DEI vector and on a CENTPAC one without having in mind the real goal to unite these two vectors.
Basically, doing what I did (so to say: concentrate all my major assets in the DEI-SRA advance), means that you're gonna be too stretched on supplies and you're gonna do without any serious repair shipyard.
Why? Because in DBB India produces very little supplies. Basically not enough to support a real late war massive offensive.
The supplies need to be brought up from the western coast to Oz and from Oz to the DEI...a LONG journey...
CT has probably enough (barely) of them, but very few tons of fuel are brought there...
Then the absence of any major repair yard means that, once a major ship is damaged, it's gonna be out of the war for a looooooong time. Much longer than if you used the western coast yards.
Colombo is too small...and it gets crowded too soon.
Sydney has the very same problem, and CT isn't that better.
Say a BB gets 30 flt damage fighting near Singapore... you need to ship it back to Colombo first (which normally is already crowded by damaged CVEs, APAs and CL/DDs), then to CT...and from there to eastern coast... all these movements easily takes a couple of months...plus the repair works...plus the trip back...[8|]

If you really want to strangle the empire, and you want to do a double-vector attack (DEI and Pacific), I think you really need to make a plan that, sooner better than later, makes the two vectors combine.

Regarding the India supply issue - India can be used to supply that vector. You must bring in massive amounts of supply to India, and ship it from there. First off, in the early going Cape Town requires fuel to be brought in or else the ships visiting there will run dry. Second, Cape Town can be denuded of supply (keep a little so as not to starve arriving units) easily early on, but continues receiving large supply convoys as time goes on and so is a good long term source of supply. The fuel situation there will also abate during '43 as the arriving convoys will begin including large amounts of fuel. And fuel should not be shipping from Cape Town to India. Abadan can supply all the fuel imports that India needs. You can also, in the early going, send some supply convoys from the Atlantic to Cape Town to bolster what is available for India.

Next is Aden. Initially supply from there is small but will help a bit. As soon as the Med is open, get two or three Liberty ship CS convoys going from the Atlantic to Aden. It's shorter than the Cape Town route and then will be shorter to trans-ship to India. That will probably roughly coincide with no longer needing to send supply convoys from the Atlantic to Cape Town.

Basically, you have to supplement the supply available in Cape Town/Aden that can be sent to India. And in Babes 'C' especially, you have to make sure there is adequate shipping there to move it.

[PaxMondo]

Sorry to see this end. Thanks for sharing hte game with us!




now its beer-thirty!

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

In the game the P-51D is comparable in combat to the P-40K with longer range. When was the last time you saw a special on the P-40K?

That is certainly not the case with a 32k max altitude HR. In my experience the P-51 did very well, including the B and D models.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: obvert
That is certainly not the case with a 32k max altitude HR. In my experience the P-51 did very well, including the B and D models.

Should add here that no P51 was ever piloted by a pilot with under 70EXP. So that might contribute a bit to their success. [:)]

[comsolut]

Greyjoy,

Thanks for the AAR! Helps players like me, improve their game.

Lee

[Cap Mandrake]

Important safety tip:

Never, ever underestimate the Western Poles. [:)]

This was like the maginot Line from Malaysia to Paramashiro Jima and there was no Ardennes to skip around it.

[Cribtop]

Yep, those Winged Hussars will mess you up! [:D]

[Mike McCreery]

Congratulations on a great game!!!

Mr. Kane appears to be a great player and he beat you mentally which was what the Japanese were trying to do IRL.

Losing is not the end, it is just the continuation of a long learning experience.

I hope you will come back stronger in the future!

[pontiouspilot]

very enjoyable AAR....I want to see a rematch. What HRs would you advocate to re-play Citizen Kane??

[Chickenboy]

Thanks, GreyJoy. Appreciate your vantage from the "wrong" side this time. Tip of the hat to Mr. Kane too-he's been an impressive opponent.

[CaptBeefheart]

Thanks for a great game, Greyjoy. Better luck in your next endeavor.

Cheers,
CC