Advice on Japanese Strategy

[WarHunter]

The whole idea that Persia and or Saudi Arabia would be good early war objectives is krazy talk. The only question Japan has to answer is this.

Pretoria?

How and when to take it. Without it, no AV.
Simple.

If Persia or Saudi Arabia gets you Pretoria. Then you are just damn good. [&o]

My only worthwhile suggestion. Build Synthetic Plant. Both. Don't delay. Buy it. Do it. Make the deal then cackle fiendishly.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

The whole idea that Persia and or Saudi Arabia would be good early war objectives is krazy talk. The only question Japan has to answer is this.

Pretoria?

How and when to take it. Without it, no AV.
Simple.

If Persia or Saudi Arabia gets you Pretoria. Then you are just damn good. [&o]

My only worthwhile suggestion. Build Synthetic Plant. Both. Don't delay. Buy it. Do it. Make the deal then cackle fiendishly.

And that last remark I agree on. Build the Synth and don't bother with Persia or Saudi Arabia, unless you want to get into a fight with the USSR over Persia.

[Extraneous]

Unless the Japanese want to DoW the USSR there is no fight with the USSR over Persia.

Optional Soviet border claims (or "How to conquer Persia with the USSR")

[Centuur]

Ahhh. But you are forgetting the timetable here. In the first turn, it is almost impossible for the USSR to DoW Persia, due to US entry limitations. Even in the second turn, this might be the case. So you can get the situation where a very aggressive Japanese player decides to start a war in Persia, with the USSR aligning it and sending peacekeepers in. Provided the Persians set up the CAV in the right spot, the Japanese won't be able to grab the oilfields without a fight against the USSR troops. And as soon as US entry allows it, who do you think will DoW the Japanese and start a war in Manchuria and Persia? How nice it is that the Japanese have China to fight against too and have to take naval (or combined) actions to send troops in a far, far away place like Persia.

I've once stated that I'm prepared to go to war over oil with Japan itself. Same with the USSR. If oil rules are used, I will be happy to go to war with the Japanese if they want to grab the oil. And the same goes the other way around too. If it is feasable, I go to war with the USSR over oil if the Japanese can get Yamamoto and the Marines on shore in Persia. OIL is the thing which the Axis need and the Allies shouldn't give to the Axis without a good fight.

[brian brian]

true, the original poster asked for advice on Japanese strategy to start the game. I have been discussing their options starting in the second half of 1940.

If the Japanese land in Saudi Arabia in preparation for their own war with Persia, the USSR can not align Persia because the USSR would not be an active Major Power yet.

Yes, the USSR could DOW Japan afterwards, but only CW Peacekeepers or Persian troops could keep the oil from the Japanese. If the CW has anything ready to go outside of their front lines with the Euro-Axis. A definite IF.

A lot of people like to have the Russians go into the Middle East. I don't think it is optimum strategy, for a couple reasons. US Entry is paramount, for one. Also, a good Japanese player will lie in wait for this, with fast TRS and their fastest 4 movement point leg infantry / Marines in reserve in Canton, for them to align Persia (Japan already active) and then immediately DOW the Russians. The USSR has little chance to attack Persia without deploying on the borders first. The USSR has to focus on the possibility of a very serious 1941 Barbarossa attack. They might see ten Axis HQs in European Russia by the end of 1941 - and they will need every bit of help they can get from the West to survive. Help from the USA is governed by the US Entry system, and is much more important than a couple oil resources in Persia, vulnerable to Japan mucking about. And it is a dilution of Russian resources; they need every single unit they can get. Their one best way to attack Persia is in conjunction with the CW, but the CW doesn't have a whole lot of sea-landing resources to go into the place. Some, but not many…they likely can't get all the oil away from Japanese Peacekeepers either. If there is not going to be a 1941 Barbarossa, then all of this calculus is VERY different.

And as Japan I absolutely want to fight the Russians. The wolf at their Polish door just completely loves this and it generates more Axis victories than any other Allied choice I have seen, when Uncle Joe lets pride and gaming boredom get the better of good strategy. Once Japan picks up some easy oil in the Middle East, where can they go next? Siberia. More easy resources and a red factory sitting there right on the coast, where the Japanese are very powerful.

There is an expression in American politics - "Follow the Money". There isn't all that much money for the Japanese to slowly pick up in China, compared to other places on the map.


And I have campaigned in South Africa with the Japanese, using forces built with all the low-hanging fruit picked up elsewhere. If the Japanese can hold Capetown for awhile, that is a very excellent place to defend one side of the now large Co-Prosperity Sphere for a time. It is very far from Japan and yes the Allies can take anything they want back from the Japanese. The farther away they start on the road to Japan, the longer Japan lasts. Japan operates on interior lines and can respond to whatever direction the most serious Allied threat appears from. The West must attack on exterior lines, and the bigger the Japanese exterior, the more difficult it is for them to shift their line of attack. Japan, like the Euro-Axis, holds the strategic initiative at the start of the game. The longer they hold had initiative (not to be confused with who has the initiative on a given turn), and the longer they force the Allies to respond to their decisions, the better chance they have to survive until the summer of 1945, which is quite difficult for them.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
If the entry option is aimed at a particular major power, you must move a marker from its entry pool to its tension pool. If there are no markers in the entry pool, the USA can never declare war on that pool’s major power(s).

As long as there is an entry marker in the US entry pool (Ge/It) the USSR can DoW Persia. Or do you read the rule that whenever the US entry pool equals zero the USA can never declare war on that pool’s major power(s) [&:]

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

I think what Centaur is skipping over is the implication that the Allies might want to be up to other things that will also reduce USE, and that you have to be careful with it. A war with either Rumania or Finland is a huge hit, if it occurs, and the Axis might be brave enough to have them face off against the USSR if the entry is too drained. CW DoWs on places like Portugal and Iraq are also fairly common first turn gambits, both of which carry their own entry penalties. And there's always the early attack on Italy crazy gambit.........


The Soviet attack on Persia, ultimately, is a fairly low priority when you look at it that way, and if the Allies do some of the above, even with a "standard" U.S. putting all 3 chits in the Ge/IT pool, you probably won't have enough entry to go after Persia.

[Extraneous]

US entry pool (Ge/It) 2 markers
US entry pool (Ja) 1 marker

Standard impulse 1 and 2
9.3 Compulsory declarations

20. The Axis declares war on Poland 1 USA entry chit and a 20% chance of another will be added to the USA entry pool)

25. The CW or France or both declare war on Germany (There is a 80% chance a USA entry marker will be added to the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
If the CW and France don't declare war on Germany in the same impulse this done separately for both the CW and France.

US entry pool (Ge/It) 2 markers
US entry pool (Ja) 1 marker

Standard impulse 3 and 4
20. The Axis declares war on other minor (Denmark) There is a 30% chance of a USA entry marker will be added to the USA entry pool.

26. The USSR controls Eastern Poland (There is a 70% chance a USA marker chit will be removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
The USSR can exercise its Nazi-Soviet Pact rights to occupy eastern Poland during any Allied land movement step. However, it can only exercise those rights if Poland has not been conquered (see 19.5.1 Eastern Poland).

US entry pool (Ge/It) 1 marker
US entry pool (Ja) 1 marker

19.6 Soviet border rectification
The USSR claims Bessarabia (and has the bombers) Germany allows the claim.

US entry pool (Ge/It) 1 marker
US entry pool (Ja) 1 marker

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
If the entry option is aimed at a particular major power, you must move a marker from its entry pool to its tension pool. If there are no markers in the entry pool, the USA can never declare war on that pool’s major power(s).

As long as there is an entry marker in the US entry pool (Ge/It) the USSR can DoW Persia. Or do you read the rule that whenever the US entry pool equals zero the USA can never declare war on that pool’s major power(s)?

Impulse 4
The USSR makes a DoW on Persia
31. The USSR declares war on Other minor country (Persia) There is a 90% chance of a USA entry marker being removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)

US entry pool (Ge/It) Zero markers
US entry pool (Ja) 1 marker

OR with an aggressive Japanese player.

Assuming that you use the same Japanese invasion plan as suggested for Suadi Arabia.

7. Italy declares war on CW or France or both 70% chance a USA entry marker will be added to the USA (Ge/It) entry pool.

20. The Axis declares war on Other minor (Persia) (JA) There is a 30% chance of a USA entry marker will be added to the USA entry pool.


21. The Allies support an attacked minor (Persia) there is 70% chance of a USA entry marker will be added to the USA (Ge/It) entry pool
This requires 4+ Allied corps or armies (not counting the units of the minor itself).

US entry pool (Ge/It) 2 markers
US entry pool (Ja) 1 marker

Unlike paulderynck I would allow the Japanese to get ashore.

Place the Persian Royal CAV corps on the oil hex Southeast of Bardar Shepur.

Do you think the USSR can't send 4 armies to Persia?

Why should the USSR fight when they can add a extra US entry marker almost every turn and still get an extra Oil?

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Even with oil, if there's only one chit in the Europe entry pool, I'll take the 70 (or is it 80? I forget) percent chance that if the Soviets demand Bessarabia, the U.S. can never enter the war in Europe. That's precisely why, at least when I was playing more actively, almost everyone put all 3 starting chits in the Ge/It pool, and let Japan catch up later.


And you're leaving out the (at least it was) very popular CW or CW+France DoW on Portugal the first chance they get. That's another 50% chance of an entry chit flying away in the breeze.

Edit: And I'm not sure how you're going to get the support bonus if Japan invades Persia. Unless the Soviets were planning on invading on the first turn, it would be unlikely that they have forces massed on the Persian border. That means to get anything in, they're going to have to rail move, and since they're not at war with a major power, that means one rail move per impulse. Unlikely to the extreme that the turn will last long enough to get 4 corps in, and same with the British or the French being able to ship that much in the way of force to defend.

21. Allies support attacked minor - the Allies have supported an attacked minor country if there are at least 4 Allied corps or armies in the minor’s unconquered home country during the Allied minor support step of the same turn an Axis major power declared war on it. Soviet units in east Poland don’t count and neither do the minor’s own units.

It has to be that turn of the DOW, you can't dribble the units in over a couple of turns to count. If you're playing with LOS, the Japanese are probably going to attack fairly late in the turn anyway, so I wouldn't count on being able to get the minor support.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

1) Even with oil, if there's only one chit in the Europe entry pool, I'll take the 70 (or is it 80? I forget) percent chance that if the Soviets demand Bessarabia, the U.S. can never enter the war in Europe. That's precisely why, at least when I was playing more actively, almost everyone put all 3 starting chits in the Ge/It pool, and let Japan catch up later.


2) And you're leaving out the (at least it was) very popular CW or CW+France DoW on Portugal the first chance they get. That's another 50% chance of an entry chit flying away in the breeze.

3) Edit: And I'm not sure how you're going to get the support bonus if Japan invades Persia. Unless the Soviets were planning on invading on the first turn, it would be unlikely that they have forces massed on the Persian border. That means to get anything in, they're going to have to rail move, and since they're not at war with a major power, that means one rail move per impulse. Unlikely to the extreme that the turn will last long enough to get 4 corps in, and same with the British or the French being able to ship that much in the way of force to defend.

21. Allies support attacked minor - the Allies have supported an attacked minor country if there are at least 4 Allied corps or armies in the minor’s unconquered home country during the Allied minor support step of the same turn an Axis major power declared war on it. Soviet units in east Poland don’t count and neither do the minor’s own units.

4)It has to be that turn of the DOW, you can't dribble the units in over a couple of turns to count. If you're playing with LOS, the Japanese are probably going to attack fairly late in the turn anyway, so I wouldn't count on being able to get the minor support.

1) I wont disagree with you. But it is the usual practice with the people here to go 2 (Ge/It) and 1 (Ja).

2) I'm keeping it simple and low key (remember we have new readers here in the forum).

3) Yes, I plan to set up on the Persian border as I previously posted. Then I only need to bring in 2 other armies. I was amused that Japanese actions in the Middle East has no real affect on the Ja pool but has a large impact on the Ge/It pool.

4) There is no need to dribble troops. Remember this is a telegraphed (signaled far in advance) move by the Japanese. When the USSR sees Japanese troops in Mogadishu waiting for final reorganization that should be a red flag to the USSR to get units to the Persian border. Because Persia with three oil is more tempting than Saudi Arabia with one oil.

[brian brian]

In a real game, both sides will generally only consider operations in Persia in 1940, when US Entry chit values are lowest.

The Russians have no choice but to telegraph this move in a major way and many Japanese players will simply wait for the Russian DOW on Persia to launch their own war with Russia, without a need to even use bases in East Africa in advance. Japan's forces are highly mobile and can threaten Russian coastal hexes very quickly, unless the Imperial Guard was marched inland in China. Hint: it makes a sobering garrison piece for wise Allies when simply waiting for orders in China or Korea.

If Japan attacks minors in the Middle East, the USSR can not align them unless it is already at war with a Major Power.

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: Auchinleck

I'm playing a Solitaire Global War. I'm a bit at a loss on how to begin the game as the Japanese player. After the initial setup, most of the land units are committed to China. War with the U.S. seems a ways off if it doesn't happen until late 1941. Because this game is so different from anything I've ever attempted to play, and because so much is not intuitive yet, I'm unsure what I should be using the vast Japanese navy for in the meantime, and where I should be sending troops to, etc.

it is a perfectly valid option for the IJN to do almost nothing until 1941. when playing with oil, it costs oil to change where any given ship is patiently waiting in port for some action.

so then you have to decide where to base them, just in case.

generally I put the majority of the IJN in the major port in Japan near Korea, that borders the China Sea and the Inland Sea, though WiF calls it something else. the zone adjacent to the north shore of Japan - and the Siberian coast. so if the Russians get frisky or the Imperial War Council decides on Operation Hachi Go - i.e. expanding the Co-Prosperity Sphere to the north - the Fleet is ready.

and there is also the possibility of action in the Middle East that we have beaten into the ground in this thread, for which Canton is the closest Japanese port, and the Japanese CVs, minus the Hosho, can go there, with the BattleCruisers and a decent squadron of cruisers. but they have one other port on the South China Sea at start - Hainan. Canton is a major port with unlimited stacking for naval units, but not land units. If you are deploying things eastwards, it helps to possibly use Hainan for embarking an extra division or two at times. You generally shouldn't ever risk leaving Canton empty or one of Mao's sneaky PARTisans can really embarrass you. So it also helps to set up a couple cruisers on Hainan, but only a pair of them, so other cruisers can deliver an infantry division there without breaking stacking.

[Numdydar]

What happens if Japan just waits for the US to go to war first? Or is that just not a very smart move?

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Not a great move in my book. If the Japanese wait, then the U.S. will set up a large force, especially submarines, in Manila. THat's one sea zone next to your artery of the China sea, and 2 away from the Sea of Japan. Send out the subs on a surprise impulse and the Japanese can lose the game in a turn. You've got to keep that from happpening, and that usually means a DoW from the Japanese side.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous



3) Yes, I plan to set up on the Persian border as I previously posted. Then I only need to bring in 2 other armies. I was amused that Japanese actions in the Middle East has no real affect on the Ja pool but has a large impact on the Ge/It pool.

4) There is no need to dribble troops. Remember this is a telegraphed (signaled far in advance) move by the Japanese. When the USSR sees Japanese troops in Mogadishu waiting for final reorganization that should be a red flag to the USSR to get units to the Persian border. Because Persia with three oil is more tempting than Saudi Arabia with one oil.

But the Soviets set up before the Japanese. And I thought we're talking a first turn attack, so if I'm the Japanese player, and I see the Soviets massing on the Persian border, then I'm in no hurry to attack, I'll just shift some bodies up to Manchuria and grab your resources in Siberia instead.

And if it is a "telegraphed" attack by the Japanese...... It still takes at most 2 naval impulses to get the convoys to Mogadishu, and then a third combined impulse to sail out, put CP in the Persian gulf, and have the second naval move ferry in your invading divisions. Even if the Soviet player figures it out the second the "odd" CP move to the Bay of Bengal happens, he's got what? Time to rail in 2-3 corps? And that's assuming he doesn't need those in other places. You want a deterrant force on the Manchurian border, you want to grab Bessarabia, you want East Poland and the Baltics, you maybe want to bully Finland. You also need troops on the front with Germany to stop those pesky 40 barb trick plays.

I am far from convinced it would be easy to get the Allies support minor in Persia.

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

What happens if Japan just waits for the US to go to war first? Or is that just not a very smart move?

as WEdge noted, it depends on what the US is doing. they might be intently focused on the European theater if Russia or the UK is in danger and may not prepare for a strong surprise opening against Japan.

Then it is OK for Japan to simply wait.

The Axis can play in such a way that the US enters the war in the summer of 1942 in some games. Or they can ignore US Entry entirely and see the US enter the war in the summer of 1941. With that date, they come to regret it when the US is raining offensive chits on them in the summer of 1944.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Not a great move in my book. If the Japanese wait, then the U.S. will set up a large force, especially submarines, in Manila. THat's one sea zone next to your artery of the China sea, and 2 away from the Sea of Japan. Send out the subs on a surprise impulse and the Japanese can lose the game in a turn. You've got to keep that from happpening, and that usually means a DoW from the Japanese side.

But the Soviets set up before the Japanese. And I thought we're talking a first turn attack, so if I'm the Japanese player, and I see the Soviets massing on the Persian border, then I'm in no hurry to attack, I'll just shift some bodies up to Manchuria and grab your resources in Siberia instead.

And if it is a "telegraphed" attack by the Japanese...... It still takes at most 2 naval impulses to get the convoys to Mogadishu, and then a third combined impulse to sail out, put CP in the Persian gulf, and have the second naval move ferry in your invading divisions. Even if the Soviet player figures it out the second the "odd" CP move to the Bay of Bengal happens, he's got what? Time to rail in 2-3 corps? And that's assuming he doesn't need those in other places. You want a deterrant force on the Manchurian border, you want to grab Bessarabia, you want East Poland and the Baltics, you maybe want to bully Finland. You also need troops on the front with Germany to stop those pesky 40 barb trick plays.

I am far from convinced it would be easy to get the Allies support minor in Persia.

I would prefer to have the USSR conquer Persia on turn 1. But doubt has been cast on the USSR being able to do it due to lack of US entry markers.

At setup having 2 USSR armies on the Persian border means I only need 2 more USSR armies.

[joshuamnave]

I still think this is all a lot of crazy talk, and here's why.

My Japanese strategy in the first half of the war has 2 primary objectives: Knock China out (or make them a paper tiger) and keep the US out of the war for as long as possible.

US entry is really the driving force behind the game. And it's not just a matter of keeping them out of the war - it's delaying their gear ups, keeping their navy from interfering with convoy attacks, slowing down US and CW reinforcements to the Pacific, delaying the embargo, etc..

As for China - while it's true there's not much to win there, the choice to go to war or not go to war in China has already been made for you. Success in China means a few extra resources and a few extra factories, while the oil in the middle east is probably worth more (until the convoys are cut, at least). However, there is a lot to lose in China. A strong China when the US comes into the war will tie up your land troops, force you to make difficult decisions on action choices, and could threaten to retake resources you've already gained. A weakened or conquered China frees up your army, gives you more flexibility in action choices, protects your resources and offers a few more points of production as a bonus.

Any Japanese strategy that isn't pushing those two buttons is, in my opinion, a win for the allies. The attacks on Saudi Arabia and Persia, while interesting theoretical discussions, impeded both of my two primary aims. They accelerate the war with the US while distracting the Japanese from their primary mission in China. It's a lot like going to war in Iraq without first securing Afghanistan, if I might use a more contemporary analogy.

To answer the OP's original question - what do I do with the Japanese navy in the early war - the answer is: nothing. For the first two years or so of the war, your navy is a shuttle service, getting your ground troops into China.

[AxelNL]

and use your carriers for air support in the southern battles.....

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

I still think this is all a lot of crazy talk, and here's why.

My Japanese strategy in the first half of the war has 2 primary objectives: Knock China out (or make them a paper tiger) and keep the US out of the war for as long as possible.

US entry is really the driving force behind the game. And it's not just a matter of keeping them out of the war - it's delaying their gear ups, keeping their navy from interfering with convoy attacks, slowing down US and CW reinforcements to the Pacific, delaying the embargo, etc..

As for China - while it's true there's not much to win there, the choice to go to war or not go to war in China has already been made for you. Success in China means a few extra resources and a few extra factories, while the oil in the middle east is probably worth more (until the convoys are cut, at least). However, there is a lot to lose in China. A strong China when the US comes into the war will tie up your land troops, force you to make difficult decisions on action choices, and could threaten to retake resources you've already gained. A weakened or conquered China frees up your army, gives you more flexibility in action choices, protects your resources and offers a few more points of production as a bonus.

Any Japanese strategy that isn't pushing those two buttons is, in my opinion, a win for the allies. The attacks on Saudi Arabia and Persia, while interesting theoretical discussions, impeded both of my two primary aims. They accelerate the war with the US while distracting the Japanese from their primary mission in China. It's a lot like going to war in Iraq without first securing Afghanistan, if I might use a more contemporary analogy.

To answer the OP's original question - what do I do with the Japanese navy in the early war - the answer is: nothing. For the first two years or so of the war, your navy is a shuttle service, getting your ground troops into China.

And that's it, folks. Now, if Portugal becomes active, the Japanese should try to take out East Timor (or garrison it), since that port makes it easier to conquer important places later in the game. Same with the alignment of Indo China (that resource needs to be put to good use in your factories). Madagascar? No, to many implications with US entry. Persia? Saudi-Arabia? With the old map Persia was a lot easier than it is now for the Japanese. I would stay away from that area of the map.
The fleet stays in the major port closest to China and the USSR, with the exception of the odd cruiser sailing out to transport a division to China. Only the TRS and AMPH will provide the shuttle service to get as many land units the Japanese can build in the first couple of turns of the war. China first is the best way to handle Japan. See if you can cripple the Yellow hordes, because if you don't cripple them, Japan has a huge problem in late war.

Save oil, try not to use it is the motto for the Japanese in the first years.

And a prudent Chinese stays away from the coast so those carrier planes are soon useless too...

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I would prefer to have the USSR conquer Persia on turn 1.

Sure, but Persia makes a lot more sense for Japan then for Russia. Russia can conquer it, but Japan can then grab all 3 oil and DoW Russia to keep them - especially since the US probably lost an entry chit when Russia DoW'd Persia, so even giving them one back (on a lower probability) would be a wash. And then JP can start creating problems in Siberia, since they're at war anyway.

Or suppose Japan does nothing. While Russia is neutral the Persian oil is of little use to them. They have no CPs to pick up the two not on rail lines and the Wallies are not allowed to do it for them (2008 Errata). In MWiF all they can do is store the one in Bushehr and use the other each turn for the small amount of oil they use while neutral.

Of the those two choices though, I think my JP would definitely DoW Russia. The cardinal sin for JP would be to not have at least two Divs and 2 4-range CAs available in Canton or Hainan.

The best thing about a Russian controlled Persia is it gives them access to Iraq.