Building Soviet Units

[Blubel]

ORIGINAL: STEF78

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

ORIGINAL: hfarrish




Seriously dude...you are dismissing advice from some of the most experienced players on this board. Your choice, but I wouldn't advise it.

"Seriously dude..." Any player (who is playing vs a GOOD German HUMAN opponent) that doesn't understand that, in THIS campaign game simulation, under THIS simulation's programmed combat/logistics/morale/movement models in effect for the 41-42 time period, the German player can crush or encircle anything the Soviet player foolishly leaves within his grasp, cannot remotely be referred to as "experienced". So what I'm rejecting is bad advice from players who have not yet been thrashed by a capable German opponent.

Did you try playing the germans againt Human?

I'm clearly not the best russian player on this forum but, as I have a good knowledge of the german strengths and weaknesses, I would be happy to give you the opportunity of crushing me as SHC

Any interest?

+1
I think the Soviet side is way too easy at the moment. I would love the chance to get utterly crushed.

[GamesaurusRex]

@STEF78:

Excuse me for pointing out the obvious STEF, but you just proved my point by the results of your own AAR post vs frogmarc... [:D]

(P.S.: I wonder if you used the "LVOV pocket" opening in your game with frogmarc... if so, you won that game on turn 2.)

[GamesaurusRex]

@Blubel:

When I have learned what is required to play the German side, I may take you up on your offer.

As it is now, I have only played the Russian side twice now versus Wheat, who is probably as good a German opponent as there is on this forum (although his modesty won't admit it). His excellent ability to press the German offensive in the CG by wringing maximum results out of the mechanics of the game has taught me much. He demonstrates clearly that German offensive results of the "Pelton Style" are achievable, while at the same time not overextending his advances in such a way that he avoids exposing his troops to Russian opportunity counterattacks, thereby maximizing point capture while minimizing losses and thwarting Russian Guards formation.

I have played both with Wheat in teams and the opposite side of the table against Wheat in pretty much every type of board and computer game available since 1968. I know him, his analytical capacity, and his acumen at gaming. This makes me rather certain of what the German side is capable of. I have not seen anything evidenced on the AARs that alters my opinion. In fact, most of the postings affirm it.

[821Bobo]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

@STEF78:

Excuse me for pointing out the obvious STEF, but you just proved my point by the results of your own AAR post vs frogmarc... [:D]

(P.S.: I wonder if you used the "LVOV pocket" opening in your game with frogmarc... if so, you won that game on turn 2.)

If your opinions are based on STEF vs frogmarch game(+ your own lost games [:D]), then it's not the best example. No offense to frogmarc, but he is not the best player. I been playing against him and crushed him too.
I offer you a game too. It seems you have now plenty potential Soviet opponents. I hope you will accept at least one to prove your statements.

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex


(P.S.: I wonder if you used the "LVOV pocket" opening in your game with frogmarc... if so, you won that game on turn 2.)

You could try to play both sides you know , it's lot more work, but no difrent than playing without fog of war .

Lvov or no Lvov , you will end up striping the south of troops, just to rebuild the northern wing . At least it will give you a real assesment of both sides capabilities .

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
As it is now, I have only played the Russian side twice...

Sorry, but this game is so complex it takes more than two games to begin to understand even many basic elements. You haven't even tried to take the advice of some experienced players. How can you expect to improve without learning from others? Kinda defeats the purpose of boards like this...

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo
I offer you a game too.

Yes please take this offer GamesaurusRex and do an AAR, I need a laugh at the moment. My money says you don't make it across the Dnieper.

[STEF78]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo
I offer you a game too.

Yes please take this offer GamesaurusRex and do an AAR, I need a laugh at the moment. My money says you don't make it across the Dnieper.

How much money? [:D]

Preventing ths german of crossing the Dnieper is a really big challenge!

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: STEF78
How much money? [:D]

To be perfectly honest, not very much.

[821Bobo]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo
I offer you a game too.

Yes please take this offer GamesaurusRex and do an AAR, I need a laugh at the moment. My money says you don't make it across the Dnieper.

You are giving me too much credit. But it pleased my soul. [:D]

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

"Seriously dude..." Any player (who is playing vs a GOOD German HUMAN opponent) that doesn't understand that, in THIS campaign game simulation, under THIS simulation's programmed combat/logistics/morale/movement models in effect for the 41-42 time period, the German player can crush or encircle anything the Soviet player foolishly leaves within his grasp, cannot remotely be referred to as "experienced". So what I'm rejecting is bad advice from players who have not yet been thrashed by a capable German opponent.

Oh, I've been thrashed by highly capable German opponents...but in prior versions of the game where the entire Luftwaffe could be turned into a flying fuel barge. Also, I learned from my mistakes and got better, you know, like most people do. I'm not sure why you continue to insist that anyone who disputes your characterization doesn't know what they are talking about (when you can just look at most of our commenting history to see that we have been playing the game for years).

[GamesaurusRex]

If you will kindly reread my posts, you will see that I said that I have no understanding of the German side of this game yet, but that I am certain that my opponent, Wheat, is competent enough at playing the German side so as to offer an optimal German offense. You gentlemen have simply not yet played against a German side opponent as capable as Wheat. If you had, you would not be so argumentative about it.

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

"Seriously dude..." Any player (who is playing vs a GOOD German HUMAN opponent) that doesn't understand that, in THIS campaign game simulation, under THIS simulation's programmed combat/logistics/morale/movement models in effect for the 41-42 time period, the German player can crush or encircle anything the Soviet player foolishly leaves within his grasp, cannot remotely be referred to as "experienced". So what I'm rejecting is bad advice from players who have not yet been thrashed by a capable German opponent.

Oh, I've been thrashed by highly capable German opponents...but in prior versions of the game where the entire Luftwaffe could be turned into a flying fuel barge. Also, I learned from my mistakes and got better, you know, like most people do. I'm not sure why you continue to insist that anyone who disputes your characterization doesn't know what they are talking about (when you can just look at most of our commenting history to see that we have been playing the game for years).

And you don't think that your opinions of game balance might be just a bit tainted by your experience from obsolete patches containing broken code ?

[821Bobo]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

If you will kindly reread my posts, you will see that I said that I have no understanding of the German side of this game yet, but that I am certain that my opponent, Wheat, is competent enough at playing the German side so as to offer an optimal German offense. You gentlemen have simply not yet played against a German side opponent as capable as Wheat. If you had, you would not be so argumentative about it.

For sure you know it better even if I am playing WitE from day one and lads like Pelton or MT probably doesn't count.
Maybe Wheat may accept one more challenge and prove that you are wrong and folks here are right.

[STEF78]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

If you will kindly reread my posts, you will see that I said that I have no understanding of the German side of this game yet,

That's surely one of the reasons why you are losing as russian.

Playing both sides helps understanding the ability and limits of your opponent.

[timmyab]

Yeah come on Wheat show us how to play the Axis side will you. What was it again? stacking armored units to prevent them being counterattacked - that's advanced stuff, I didn't even know you could stack units.

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

"Seriously dude..." Any player (who is playing vs a GOOD German HUMAN opponent) that doesn't understand that, in THIS campaign game simulation, under THIS simulation's programmed combat/logistics/morale/movement models in effect for the 41-42 time period, the German player can crush or encircle anything the Soviet player foolishly leaves within his grasp, cannot remotely be referred to as "experienced". So what I'm rejecting is bad advice from players who have not yet been thrashed by a capable German opponent.

Oh, I've been thrashed by highly capable German opponents...but in prior versions of the game where the entire Luftwaffe could be turned into a flying fuel barge. Also, I learned from my mistakes and got better, you know, like most people do. I'm not sure why you continue to insist that anyone who disputes your characterization doesn't know what they are talking about (when you can just look at most of our commenting history to see that we have been playing the game for years).

And you don't think that your opinions of game balance might be just a bit tainted by your experience from obsolete patches containing broken code ?

You really just don't give up do you? I've played plenty under all versions, including the current one, in each case against very good players. I think it is in a great state now (relative to previous versions) but you need house rules to make it competitive - an unrestrained Soviet player who knows what he is doing can generally crush the Germans.

I just can't get over why you think you (of admittedly very little experience in ANY version, much less this one) know that things are horribly biased towards the Germans when no one else on the Boards, including the Soviet players, think this is the case.

[M60A3TTS]

Gamesaurus, out of curiosity are you playing PBEM or server against Wheat? If it is PBEM, I would very much like to see one of your game saves.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

You gentlemen have simply not yet played against a German side opponent as capable as Wheat. If you had, you would not be so argumentative about it.

Makes no sense. The game is broken because a newbie played against a capable and experienced opponent? Looks like you're looking for excuses rather than trying to learn the game and improve your own gameplay...

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: Schmart

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

You gentlemen have simply not yet played against a German side opponent as capable as Wheat. If you had, you would not be so argumentative about it.

Makes no sense. The game is broken because a newbie played against a capable and experienced opponent? Looks like you're looking for excuses rather than trying to learn the game and improve your own gameplay...

Man... you know you are in a room full of "fanbois" when you can't even discuss issues with their "pet" without being attacked !

Now Gentlemen... I invite you to go back and re-READ what I have posted... if you do, (and can resist your knee-jerk reaction to anything less than glowing comments) you will find that I have criticized basically two things:

1) That the game has faults simulating the 41-42 time period. It biases the mechanics of combat/morale/movement too much in favor of the German side in order to insure that the German side can obtain sweeping advances and magic pockets in that time period. The negative consequence of this design approach results in the Russian side avoiding all but the most necessary of combat needed to delay the German in order to evacuate industry. This plays out in a less than historical way where the Russian simply abandons everything west of Moskow, (ideally without a fight for maximum effect.) Dissapointing from both side's perspective as a game simulation.

2) That the CG scenario is flawed by the enabling of the "Lvov Pocket" opening, which was neither physically nor politically possible to achieve in reality (for reasons I have detailed in other threads, along with suggested HR to limit it) and is a side effect of flawed movement, flawed terrain mapping/weather details, and time-slicing issues related to IGO-UGO turn design.


And Further...

That after reading most of all the posts on this forum, I get the clear impression that a majority of the comments regarding the "balance" state of this game were formed and based upon player experiences gained PRIOR to the recent patches (prior to 1.07.11 and beyond). The later patches have significantly changed the game. So... no disrespect to those who played the game "since beta", but their dated perspective is basically unrelated to the current state of the game.

And Finally...

In THIS thread, the OP asked for opinions regarding Soviet buildup in the early stage of the CG. I voiced the opinion that advocated that he build basic units aimed eventually at Infantry Corps buildup and retreat rapidly enough to deny "death by pocket". It seems that by advocating this I have angered the German "fanbois" crowd who thrive on exploiting the flaws in the game to produce Pelton's patented "Sieg by Turn 14".