Development of the AI

[Auchinleck]

First, I'd like to say, the more I learn the game, and it's many subtle rules, the more I like it! But, I feel another strong opinion I have formed about why the AI should be more of a priority than Netplay. First, I think it's fair, if not also accurate to say that most who buy pc wargames, play the games against an AI, rather than attempting the hassle of finding someone to play, arranging schedules, and even more difficult, finding a player that might be an even enough match of one's own skills, to make a two player game interesting. From a marketing standpoint, I have little doubt that Matrix would have, and might still sell more copies of WIF, if the game had an AI. Even if the AI wasn't particularly creative, which AI's are not in many pc war games anyway. I can't fathom that there are that many players who have the time and patience to complete a 2 player game for the reasons I have already mentioned. So why are efforts not being concentrated on what seems the most pressing missing element of WIF? The AI.

[paulderynck]

As your other posts have demonstrated, it's a very complicated game, no? And you're just scratching the surface. The code for the game would have to be operable before the AI could even be tested. You can see from many of the posts here that some parts of that code are still not yet sufficiently functional. This was foreseen about two years ago (or more) when the decision was taken to release the game without the AI so that those who wanted to play it without an AI would get it sooner. (Otherwise everybody waits.)

I'm guessing they got it two years sooner... but an AI was always part of the plan.

[mjjcpa]

I agree with the sentiment on how many of us buy wargames to play solo, and therefore making AI a priority.

That said, there is something inexplicably unique and special about multi-player WiF.

Perhaps it's the turn length and weather variability that lends to a different game EVERY time, regardless of strategy changes.

I stopped by a convention in Providence, RI once and watched a few tournament matches. I witnessed the gamut of emotions. I learned a great deal and was only there for an hour. I'm looking forward to being schooled by some of the grognards here.

We won't need a 1000 paper cups to select units either. A WiF convention looks like a frat party with little trays of small cups all about.

[Extraneous]

Artifical Intelligence for World in Flames (2005)

AI Opponent - Geography (2011)

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Auchinleck

First, I'd like to say, the more I learn the game, and it's many subtle rules, the more I like it! But, I feel another strong opinion I have formed about why the AI should be more of a priority than Netplay. First, I think it's fair, if not also accurate to say that most who buy pc wargames, play the games against an AI, rather than attempting the hassle of finding someone to play, arranging schedules, and even more difficult, finding a player that might be an even enough match of one's own skills, to make a two player game interesting. From a marketing standpoint, I have little doubt that Matrix would have, and might still sell more copies of WIF, if the game had an AI. Even if the AI wasn't particularly creative, which AI's are not in many pc war games anyway. I can't fathom that there are that many players who have the time and patience to complete a 2 player game for the reasons I have already mentioned. So why are efforts not being concentrated on what seems the most pressing missing element of WIF? The AI.

Auchinleck I will be in trouble again for this unsightly opinion of mine, this is my opinion and I am not speaking for anyone else on the beta team. First what will be will be and I guess that means that net play will be done first.
Provided it can be done [:(] I do not say that lightly sir. Remember what Erik said, "this is the first time Matrix has ever released a game without an AI", it does make you wonder about corparate decisions sometimes [;)]

Most if not all the beta team are board game players as are many posters on the general forums, they believe with their heart and soul that the only way to play this game is against a human opponet. [Net play or hot seat] I do not challenge that feeling in any way shape or form, I heard all kind of reasons about why netplay should be done first, and personally IMHO all the reasons do not cut the mustard. I personally will most likely never play the game until the AI is finished. IMHO these decisions by whoever were not thought out very well several years ago.

IMHO this game will never reach the glory it should have reached by now, IMHO this game will never reach its destiny until the AI is properly installed, so I do not get in trouble again with my thoughts on this subject I used a lot of "IMHO" [:-]

Bo

[Numdydar]

The other side of the coin is that once Netplay and the rest of the issues are resolved, the community here will be able to have a lot of input into the AI and how it is developed. Which is pretty unique. This way real experts in the play of WiF can step forward and tune the AI to be much better than if only Steve and the Betas would have done it the way most games are done. So I have some optimisum on how all this will turn out [:)].
 
Even with the problems with the release, I'd much rather have the game available now versus waiting 12-24 months to be released with an AI. But that is just me [:)]

[LeeChard]

I'm one of the guys that play against the AI almost exclusively. I bought the game with full realization that I
would only be able to play solitaire until AI arrives. I wanted to do something concrete to show my support for
this ongoing project.
Playing solitaire is more enjoyable than I expected but I would really like to see a separate European/Pacific
scenarios. Trying to play both sides of the entire war is a bit much for me.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

The other side of the coin is that once Netplay and the rest of the issues are resolved, the community here will be able to have a lot of input into the AI and how it is developed. Which is pretty unique. This way real experts in the play of WiF can step forward and tune the AI to be much better than if only Steve and the Betas would have done it the way most games are done. So I have some optimisum on how all this will turn out [:)].

Even with the problems with the release, I'd much rather have the game available now versus waiting 12-24 months to be released with an AI. But that is just me [:)]

Ahhh Numy I wish it were so with netplay I mean that, of course I could care less about net play but thats just me, a lot of reasons for that opinion but it is useless to state them with the mind set here [:(]

IMO let the experts handle the AI [Steve] I actually believe that the AI will be Steves ultimate goal, I can see him now sitting on the beach at Waikiki with his Mai Tai reading the posts on his laptop and listen to all the bit**ing about how we are being destroyed by his AI program [&o] Now that would make his day [;)]

But IMHO that AI is down the road apiece [farmers saying for a long way off] If anyone here has completed just one turn of netplay please advise me, that would be a new one to me. Ahhh Numy except for you and a few others the forums are dead again. A lot of good posters have lost all faith in this game. And that is a shame that this brillant game has reached that point. [>:]

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Ranger5355

I'm one of the guys that play against the AI almost exclusively. I bought the game with full realization that I
would only be able to play solitaire until AI arrives. I wanted to do something concrete to show my support for
this ongoing project.
Playing solitaire is more enjoyable than I expected but I would really like to see a separate European/Pacific
scenarios. Trying to play both sides of the entire war is a bit much for me.

Hopefully Ranger, Steve will be able to release Fascist Tide sooner than later, I am not exactly sure what he is fixing in it but I can play it right through at least several years with very little or no problems. I agree the full global war game is a little much solo and when Fascist tide is delivered you will really enjoy it.

Bo

[WarHunter]

ORIGINAL: bo
But IMHO that AI is down the road apiece [farmers saying for a long way off] If anyone here has completed just one turn of netplay please advise me, that would be a new one to me. Ahhh Numy except for you and a few others the forums are dead again. A lot of good posters have lost all faith in this game. And that is a shame that this brillant game has reached that point. [>:]
Bo

Bo,
NetPlay and an AI are both needed. The fact NetPlay has priority, (Erik said that), is a good thing really. Not popular with everyone is evident.

On 3/22/2014 i was contacted by firmir, to try using Teamviewer for a game. I did not know what Teamviewer was but after downloading and getting on firmir's ventrilo server. A little instruction and off we went to the races. We have played up to the production phase for Sept/Oct 1940.

We are using Solo play and that is not without problems. Supply anomalies, resource management top the problems we have had. But with patience, reloading save games and voice communication we have been climbing the mountain. The need to have voice communication can not be understated. It needs to be part of the NetPlay package.

Maybe Matrix should look into funding a ventrilo server or something like it for use with MWiF. And also some links for Teamviewer. It could help bridge the gap. At least while NetPlay the "priority" is slowly being worked on.

[paulderynck]

Once again, it's worth noting that Teamviewer (or any other remote desktop applications) present a security risk to your home network.

You need to be completely satisfied with the program's configuration and security settings, and/or have complete trust in your playing partner.

That said, I have done some testing on an internal network and I think it would work very well for a game in Hot-seat mode, plus offers the convenience of having the file to work with your move on your own time at your leisure, without having your opponent snoring in your ear on Skype, while he tries to watch.

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: bo
Hopefully Ranger, Steve will be able to release Fascist Tide sooner than later, I am not exactly sure what he is fixing in it but I can play it right through at least several years with very little or no problems.

So, the half-map Fascist Tide scenario is playable right now in beta and doesn't need to be developed from scratch? If it is playable without showstopper bugs (any moreso than the rest of the game), then it would be nice to see this released. Heck, why not?

Regarding the OP, I tend to agree with Paul to get game functionality up to speed first before AI development. And real people playing the game will help speed that up, so NetPlay is important to help make that happen. Ultimately we all want the game to be finished, done done done, and that means having all the features implemented, working correctly, multiplayer working over NetPlay and solitaire working versus a challenging AI. We'll get there, sooner or later.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

ORIGINAL: bo
Hopefully Ranger, Steve will be able to release Fascist Tide sooner than later, I am not exactly sure what he is fixing in it but I can play it right through at least several years with very little or no problems.

So, the half-map Fascist Tide scenario is playable right now in beta and doesn't need to be developed from scratch? If it is playable without showstopper bugs (any moreso than the rest of the game), then it would be nice to see this released. Heck, why not?

Regarding the OP, I tend to agree with Paul to get game functionality up to speed first before AI development. And real people playing the game will help speed that up, so NetPlay is important to help make that happen. Ultimately we all want the game to be finished, done done done, and that means having all the features implemented, working correctly, multiplayer working over NetPlay and solitaire working versus a challenging AI. We'll get there, sooner or later.

Hi pzgndr, I posted before I was working on Fascist Tide, I don't think there are any more beta secrets here. I know Steve has some corrections to do on Fascist Tide and he will release it as soon as possible. We will get there sooner or later no doubt. I asked before a few weeks ago has anyone beta or general game owners completed one turn of net play yet? If not why not?

I know you might not want to hear this and please take what I am saying with a grain of salt because I am not a programmer, is there a possibility that a huge complex rules wise game such as MWIF will never be compatiable with net play? PBEM will never happen at least to my way of thinking. Just maybe Paul is on the right track with his post above. Somewheres in time we have to pull our heads out of the sand and say hmmmmm! [:(]

Bo

[pzgndr]

Thanks Bo, I  didn't know the status of Fascist Tide.  I thought it might be longer off than it is apparently.
 
I'm more optimistic about the technical resolution of data exchange.  If you can play hotseat or solitaire or against the AI, then you should be able to exchange data files via TCP/IP, NetPlay or pbem.  The real limitations are frequency of data exchange for complex interactive actions and how well real players will tolerate delays and turn-arounds.  I suppose there are many die-hard veteran players willing and able to sit for hours and play this monster realtime on NetPlay when its done, but I'm not one of them!  But I won't begrudge those who want to do that.  I will wait for a computer opponent.

[LeeChard]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Ranger5355

I'm one of the guys that play against the AI almost exclusively. I bought the game with full realization that I
would only be able to play solitaire until AI arrives. I wanted to do something concrete to show my support for
this ongoing project.
Playing solitaire is more enjoyable than I expected but I would really like to see a separate European/Pacific
scenarios. Trying to play both sides of the entire war is a bit much for me.

Hopefully Ranger, Steve will be able to release Fascist Tide sooner than later, I am not exactly sure what he is fixing in it but I can play it right through at least several years with very little or no problems. I agree the full global war game is a little much solo and when Fascist tide is delivered you will really enjoy it.

Bo

Looking forward to it [:)]

[etsadler]

Folks,

With only one programmer (Steve) working on this project, can anyone have any real expectation that we will see Net Play, remaining optional rules, and AI in this decade? I'm generally the eternal optimist, but the glacial pace of the development of this game is, well I don't even know what it is.

I'm enjoying what has been provided. But I'm certainly not holding my breath waiting for the rest to show up.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Thanks Bo, I  didn't know the status of Fascist Tide.  I thought it might be longer off than it is apparently.

I'm more optimistic about the technical resolution of data exchange.  If you can play hotseat or solitaire or against the AI, then you should be able to exchange data files via TCP/IP, NetPlay or pbem.  The real limitations are frequency of data exchange for complex interactive actions and how well real players will tolerate delays and turn-arounds.  I suppose there are many die-hard veteran players willing and able to sit for hours and play this monster realtime on NetPlay when its done, but I'm not one of them!  But I won't begrudge those who want to do that.  I will wait for a computer opponent.

The rules for simulating naval combats which are done on the other part of the world have still to be coded for the half map scenario's. This isn't going to be done soon.
The order of battle regarding MWIF is solitair bugs first, netplay second. And than we could be talking about a long time, since progress is slow, due to the complexity of the game and the enormous amount of code Steve has to work on.
Putting in the half map scenario's isn't anywhere at the top of the lists of things to do at this moment, I'm afraid...

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

Folks,

With only one programmer (Steve) working on this project, can anyone have any real expectation that we will see Net Play, remaining optional rules, and AI in this decade? I'm generally the eternal optimist, but the glacial pace of the development of this game is, well I don't even know what it is.

I'm enjoying what has been provided. But I'm certainly not holding my breath waiting for the rest to show up.

Thanks for the positive words. It's needed sometimes, because we beta testers need this kind of support. Let me just say this to your timetable. I expect that things will go faster than you've written here. However, some parts of it will IMHO indeed take years to build, not just a mere months or weeks. But I think everyone here has already come to that conclusion...

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Thanks Bo, I  didn't know the status of Fascist Tide.  I thought it might be longer off than it is apparently.

I'm more optimistic about the technical resolution of data exchange.  If you can play hotseat or solitaire or against the AI, then you should be able to exchange data files via TCP/IP, NetPlay or pbem.  The real limitations are frequency of data exchange for complex interactive actions and how well real players will tolerate delays and turn-arounds.  I suppose there are many die-hard veteran players willing and able to sit for hours and play this monster realtime on NetPlay when its done, but I'm not one of them!  But I won't begrudge those who want to do that.  I will wait for a computer opponent.

The rules for simulating naval combats which are done on the other part of the world have still to be coded for the half map scenario's. This isn't going to be done soon.
The order of battle regarding MWIF is solitair bugs first, netplay second. And than we could be talking about a long time, since progress is slow, due to the complexity of the game and the enormous amount of code Steve has to work on.
Putting in the half map scenario's isn't anywhere at the top of the lists of things to do at this moment, I'm afraid...

Downer [:D]

Bo

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Thanks Bo, I  didn't know the status of Fascist Tide.  I thought it might be longer off than it is apparently.

I'm more optimistic about the technical resolution of data exchange.  If you can play hotseat or solitaire or against the AI, then you should be able to exchange data files via TCP/IP, NetPlay or pbem.  The real limitations are frequency of data exchange for complex interactive actions and how well real players will tolerate delays and turn-arounds.  I suppose there are many die-hard veteran players willing and able to sit for hours and play this monster realtime on NetPlay when its done, but I'm not one of them!  But I won't begrudge those who want to do that.  I will wait for a computer opponent.

The rules for simulating naval combats which are done on the other part of the world have still to be coded for the half map scenario's. This isn't going to be done soon.
The order of battle regarding MWIF is solitair bugs first, netplay second. And than we could be talking about a long time, since progress is slow, due to the complexity of the game and the enormous amount of code Steve has to work on.
Putting in the half map scenario's isn't anywhere at the top of the lists of things to do at this moment, I'm afraid...

Downer [:D]

Bo

Realistic, I would say...