Again I was testing obstacles. I noted that when infantry stops next to a mine, it may or may not locate it (no surprise there). However, I also noted that if it does not locate the mine on the first turn, it never will. Appearently there are no more attempts to locate the mine unless the unit moves.
It seems strange to me that a stationary unit settling into terrain would not continue to look around. Does anyone else find this strange also?
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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.
Infantry and mines
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
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Larry Holt
- Posts: 1644
- Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2000 10:00 am
- Location: Atlanta, GA 30068
Infantry and mines
Never take counsel of your fears.
What a unit will discover is contingent upon its quality. A Soviet unit may never see a mine until it steps on it for example. On the other hand, a high quality German unit will most likely see the mine before it steps on it.
When a mine is stepped on, the lower quality unit is more likely to be blown up, etc,etc.
At the beginning of a turn, facing units in all directions will sometimes enhance the probability that a mine will be detected.
I think that landmines *may* be quality controlled also. That is, a "high quality" land mine may be more likely to blow up than a low quality. But I have never been able to to prove that.
When a mine is stepped on, the lower quality unit is more likely to be blown up, etc,etc.
At the beginning of a turn, facing units in all directions will sometimes enhance the probability that a mine will be detected.
I think that landmines *may* be quality controlled also. That is, a "high quality" land mine may be more likely to blow up than a low quality. But I have never been able to to prove that.
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Larry Holt
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- Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2000 10:00 am
- Location: Atlanta, GA 30068
I tested this with a range of experience from 130 to 65 using German SPEC OPS. Only one of the lower ones (70 exp IIRC) found the mine. I ran this test several times and there was no coorelation between experience and detection which surprised me Perhaps my sample was too small to be statistically significant.Originally posted by Redleg:
What a unit will discover is contingent upon its quality. A Soviet unit may never see a mine until it steps on it for example. On the other hand, a high quality German unit will most likely see the mine before it steps on it.
I found that German engineers found the mines all the times. However, one time a 65 experience engineer hit the mine when entering its hex, even though the mine was spotted.
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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.
Never take counsel of your fears.
Larry Holt: I think a unit spotting the mines and then being hit by them is quite normal, though fairly unusual. It seems to me that mobile units cannot even enter mine hexes during the player turn (or at least it flags them as impassable as far movement radius goes - which would probably also mean that they will enter mine hexes with player control, but only at the expense of a cost in CC orders).
Foot units, OTOH, often enter known mine hexes without harm, but I don't think they exit said hexes with a ratio anything close to safety.
There's also something to be said for a unit knowing there's mines there, but quite another for them to know how many there are, as indeed the player is no longer told how many are there when going up against enemy mines, like it used to. All we know is that a "path" has been worked through. That does make me wonder, though, when a path is found, does that mean that the path is always considered the full amount of mines, or not? If that were so, what we're really buying is not how many mines are in the hex, but how many will get in the way. So, you either have the mines in the way, vague, or you have how many they clear, to make a path, vague. I suppose someone could experiment with this (don't look at me
) if it really fascinates them.
Foot units, OTOH, often enter known mine hexes without harm, but I don't think they exit said hexes with a ratio anything close to safety.
There's also something to be said for a unit knowing there's mines there, but quite another for them to know how many there are, as indeed the player is no longer told how many are there when going up against enemy mines, like it used to. All we know is that a "path" has been worked through. That does make me wonder, though, when a path is found, does that mean that the path is always considered the full amount of mines, or not? If that were so, what we're really buying is not how many mines are in the hex, but how many will get in the way. So, you either have the mines in the way, vague, or you have how many they clear, to make a path, vague. I suppose someone could experiment with this (don't look at me
) if it really fascinates them.-
Larry Holt
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- Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2000 10:00 am
- Location: Atlanta, GA 30068
I agree that this is vague and somewhat contradictory. Consider that clearing a path in real life only means that a lane several meters wide has been cleared. There could be more mines (probably are) nearby. If you go outside the lane, you risk being hit by a mine. In the game, clearing a path means that the hex has no more mines at all and a unit can spread out in it, move through it in a direction that the original clearing unit did not (& thus could not have cleared a path), etc.Originally posted by Charles22:
All we know is that a "path" has been worked through. That does make me wonder, though, when a path is found, does that mean that the path is always considered the full amount of mines, or not? If that were so, what we're really buying is not how many mines are in the hex, but how many will get in the way. So, you either have the mines in the way, vague, or you have how many they clear, to make a path, vague. I suppose someone could experiment with this (don't look at me
However, its a simulation so I guess that I can live with this.
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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.
Never take counsel of your fears.
Larry Holt: I've come across with the thinking that you have, that a path is made after "all" the mines have been cleared, but is this really so? Does it actually take clearing, say, all ten mines, to effect a path? It doesn't seem to me that clearing mines has become quicker with the new language, whereas if it were only about clearing a certain percentage of the total mines, it would probably be noticeable. I suppose the language used is just a way to broaden our imaginations a bit.
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Larry Holt
- Posts: 1644
- Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2000 10:00 am
- Location: Atlanta, GA 30068
I can confirm that a path is cleared only after ALL obstacles have been cleared. I "played" test scenarios and checked the number of remaining obstacles from the other side each turn. This is true for mines, barbed wire and dragon's teeth.Originally posted by Charles22:
Larry Holt: I've come across with the thinking that you have, that a path is made after "all" the mines have been cleared, but is this really so? Does it actually take clearing, say, all ten mines, to effect a path?
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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.
Never take counsel of your fears.
Think of it this way.....a hex is 50 meters across. Your infantry squad stops in the hex. They could be anywhere in that hex....near the "front edge", a side, the rear, spread out.....you don't know. So the chance to detect a minefield, in the next 50 meters, is variable.I noted that when infantry stops next to a mine, it may or may not locate it (no surprise there). However, I also noted that if it does not locate the mine on the first turn, it never will. Appearently there are no more attempts to locate the mine unless the unit moves.
It seems strange to me that a stationary unit settling into terrain would not continue to look around. Does anyone else find this strange also?
Suppose that this stopped infantry attempts to find cover. Digging foxholes, piling brush, etc. Are they REALLY going to be able to spot a minefield, in the next hex, now? I don't think so.
So, until a unit moves again, with skirmishers and pointmen out, looking for a path through the next hex, they ain't gonna see them mines!
Here's an experiment: Have your neighbor/friend go into your backyard. Tell him to dig a hole about a foot across, then cover it (simulated mine). Now.....without looking in your backyard, go to his yard (which should be next to yours), and try to see where he "laid the mine". Walk around his yard. Try from near the house....then walk up to the dividing line. Move over to the right side. Try the left. Then pick a spot and sit down. Wait a few minutes, all the while scanning your yard. Then tell me if you spotted his "mine".
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The Motor Pool
http://www.geocities.com/aurion_eq/index.html?976419304550
kmcferren@cvn.net
Yes they can. They have unlimited mines to lay and the mines come with the price of the unit. Face the unit in the direction you want the mine layed, right click on the unit and in the bottom left of the screen you'll see a line in green that says unit will clear mines or something very close. Click on the line and this will change it. the next change will say unit will not clear mines again something close to this. This line is important because if you lay a mine and the engineer is next to it, it can't tell if it's yours or the enemies and will clear it. The next line change will allow to lay mines. The mine will be layed in the direction the unit is facing one hex away. How long it takes I think is dependent on the unit skill level I believe. Also dependent on if it getting shot at Some engineer units I've used never layed a mine others were pretty good at it. Opponents can get testy if they suddenly run into a mine field so just like agreeing to buying them or not it should be talked over. Also if you buy a mine group you get 10 mines I think, if an engineer lays a mine it is a single mine. I don't know if they can lay more than one mine in a hex, I never looked.
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PR
http://electricwar.tripod.com/
Some engineer units I've used never layed a mine others were pretty good at it. Opponents can get testy if they suddenly run into a mine field so just like agreeing to buying them or not it should be talked over. Also if you buy a mine group you get 10 mines I think, if an engineer lays a mine it is a single mine. I don't know if they can lay more than one mine in a hex, I never looked.------------------
PR
http://electricwar.tripod.com/
PR
Pack Rat/Randy: The mines do keep coming, it's not just one a hex.
Something suddenly struck me though...I could swear that I've played a recent game where all my engineers started the game laying mines (defensive mission), finally, later, one or two squads I decided to reverse this role, and start clearing mines. If I recall correctly they DID NOT clear a single mine with some 4-5 turns elapsing without suppression, and we know they at least clear one mine every turn (at least the German ones I'm so familiar with, do).
Something suddenly struck me though...I could swear that I've played a recent game where all my engineers started the game laying mines (defensive mission), finally, later, one or two squads I decided to reverse this role, and start clearing mines. If I recall correctly they DID NOT clear a single mine with some 4-5 turns elapsing without suppression, and we know they at least clear one mine every turn (at least the German ones I'm so familiar with, do).