All things Football (soccer) related

[warspite1]

So, who will win the Premier League? We are entering the home straight and there are still 3 (maybe 4) in with a chance.

Liverpool, Chelsea, Manchester City or Arsenal?

Personally I would like to see Liverpool win it - A young British manager with a core of English players - Gerrard, Sturridge, Flanagan, Henderson, Johnson, Sterling. Good to see for a change.

[TulliusDetritus]

I too hope Liverpool bags it (that's the team I always supported in the English league, since I was a kid in the early 80s).

I suspect Manchester City will eventually bag it though. But as long as the team of the dodgy Russian oligarch does not win no problem (nothing against the guy or the fans)... no wait... the fans wanted Mourinho, despite they knew very well (as everyone who follows football) what sort of person this guy is. So they deserve what's coming to them [;)]

[warspite1]

Chelsea fans? That's a sore point with me...

I mean absolutely no disrespect to those fans who really did support Chelsea during the lean years - you know who you are and fair play [&o], BUT...

There are so many Chelsea "fans" of my age group all of a sudden. Where did they come from? Anything to do with Abramovich's millions per chance and the club suddenly winning silverware?

Chelsea's average attendance in the early 80's? 12-13,000. What was Spurs average attendance when we were in Division 2? Over 30,000.

Sorry, but changing your football team is a no no....

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Alright then, all matches finished.

Yesterday:

Barcelona 1 - 1 Atletico de Madrid
Manchester United 1 - 1 Bayern Munchen

Today

Paris Saint Germain 3 - 1 Chelsea YES!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA! In your face, Moaninho!!!
Real Madrid 3 - 0 Borussia Dortmund

Needless to say, those who scored away have indeed a small advantage (Atletico de Madrid and Bayern Munchen). Only Real Madrid seems they might bag it. But you never know. I just hope Chelsea does not make it to the semi-finals LOL

warspite1

I guess you are not too happy this morning? [;)]

[rodney727]

Thank you yes it helped!

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: rogo727

OK! Thank you for the links. Do the best teams in Germany ever play the best teams form other countries like the UK, France or Spain? I'm not talking about National teams.

warspite1

Yes they do. Since the late 50's (iirc) there has been European competition in addition to domestic league and cup competitions. The European club competitions are played during the domestic season (there are some countries whose season is different because of their location and the weather, but most European seasons run from August - May (give or take).

These competitions have gone through a few different guises but essentially (and allowing for a few name changes) you had:

European Cup

This was a competition for the Champions of the top division of each European League (+ the winner could defend their title, even if not that seasons domestic winner). E.g. Nottingham Forest only one the English league championship once (1978) but have won the European Cup twice (1979 and 1980) as they were allowed to defend their 79 triumph. It was when flying back from a European Cup semi-final in Belgrade in 1958 that the Manchester United air crash happened. They stopped off in Munich and while trying to take off in snowy conditions, they crashed, killing most of the glorious "Busby Babes" team. It is highly likely that Manchester United would have been the dominant force in European soccer had that not happened.

Real Madrid (Spain) were the main winners in the early years and then a number of teams had periods of dominance in the late 60's and early 70's - Ajax (Holland) Inter Milan (Italy) and Bayern Munich (Germany). Scotland's Celtic were the first British team to win the trophy (1967) and England's Manchester United won it a year later. In the late 70's and 80's, English teams dominated - Liverpool, Forest and Aston Villa.

European Cup Winners Cup

This was a competition for the winners of the main domestic cup. Tottenham Hotspur were the first English winners of this or any European trophy in 1963 (beating Atletico Madrid 5-1 in Rotterdam). A host of British clubs won this trophy.

Inter City Fairs Cup / UEFA cup

This was a competition for the best placed clubs in the domestic leagues, beginning with the runners-up. How many places were available for each country depended on the strength of the domestic league, but typically 3-4 for the bigger countries.


You could only appear in one competition and so if you won the cup and league, you played in the European Cup and the runners up in the cup played in the Cup Winners Cup. If you were one of the high finishers in the league, but won the cup, you played in the Cup Winners Cup and the club that finished in the next place down went into the ICFC/UEFA Cup.

Champions League

Money talks as they say, and in more recent time (early 90's?) they got rid of the European Cup and replaced it with the Champion League. This is the premier European Competition and is where the big bucks are. You no longer have to be the winner of your league to play in it - Top countries like England, Spain etc get their top 4 teams enter. The money is so big here that getting into the top 4 in England is seen as absolutely vital to financial success.

Europa League

The Cup Winners Cup and UEFA Cup no longer exist either and have been replaced with this secondary competition. ALL European football used to be played on a Wednesday night. Now, because of TV and money, the Champions League games are played on Tuesday and Wednesday nights and the Europa League is relegated to a Thursday (which does not help its popularity with managers who have a domestic game at the weekend).

The Europa League is badly maligned which is a real shame. Its a top competition and any winner has to beat top class opposition. Its a shame that so many English clubs do not take it as seriously as they should.

Anyway, I hope that potted history is helpful.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Alright then, all matches finished.

Yesterday:

Barcelona 1 - 1 Atletico de Madrid
Manchester United 1 - 1 Bayern Munchen

Today

Paris Saint Germain 3 - 1 Chelsea YES!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA! In your face, Moaninho!!!
Real Madrid 3 - 0 Borussia Dortmund

Needless to say, those who scored away have indeed a small advantage (Atletico de Madrid and Bayern Munchen). Only Real Madrid seems they might bag it. But you never know. I just hope Chelsea does not make it to the semi-finals LOL

warspite1

I guess you are not too happy this morning? [;)]

I was "not too happy" last night [:@] [:)]

But today I am looking on the bright side Let's imagine Bayern and Barcelona make it... I trust these two teams... They should humiliate the blues (or maybe Mourinho will be facing his old team: Real Madrid). Either way, they must be humiliated. I have spoken!

Those who say Mourinho is a great coach make me laugh. He has mega expensive teams and yet plays as a small team: defensive, counter-attack. Great squads are generous and always attack. That's the mark of the great.

[rodney727]

As a soccer fan why are you happy with a 1-1 tie? I would like soccer much more if there was a sudden death or something along that lines. I watched US vs Mexico and while it was just so called a friendly game it ended in a 2-2 tie. Disappointed I can't be the only person who feels this way or am I?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Alright then, all matches finished.

Yesterday:

Barcelona 1 - 1 Atletico de Madrid
Manchester United 1 - 1 Bayern Munchen

Today

Paris Saint Germain 3 - 1 Chelsea YES!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA! In your face, Moaninho!!!
Real Madrid 3 - 0 Borussia Dortmund

Needless to say, those who scored away have indeed a small advantage (Atletico de Madrid and Bayern Munchen). Only Real Madrid seems they might bag it. But you never know. I just hope Chelsea does not make it to the semi-finals LOL

warspite1

I guess you are not too happy this morning? [;)]

I was "not too happy" last night [:@] [:)]

But today I am looking on the bright side Let's imagine Bayern and Barcelona make it... I trust these two teams... They should humiliate the blues (or maybe Mourinho will be facing his old team: Real Madrid). Either way, they must be humiliated. I have spoken!

Those who say Mourinho is a great coach make me laugh. He has mega expensive teams and yet plays as a small team: defensive, counter-attack. Great squads are generous and always attack. That's the mark of the great.

warspite1

I find Mourinho irritating - extremely so this season, but I do not understand how he can be said to be "not a great coach". Look at what he has won. So many titles in many countries - he has never been beaten at Stamford Bridge! Having an expensively assembled squad is no guarantee of success.

Looks like your trust in Barca was misplaced too [;)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: rogo727

As a soccer fan why are you happy with a 1-1 tie? I would like soccer much more if there was a sudden death or something along that lines. I watched US vs Mexico and while it was just so called a friendly game it ended in a 2-2 tie. Disappointed I can't be the only person who feels this way or am I?

warspite1

Yes. [:'(]

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: rogo727

As a soccer fan why are you happy with a 1-1 tie? I would like soccer much more if there was a sudden death or something along that lines. I watched US vs Mexico and while it was just so called a friendly game it ended in a 2-2 tie. Disappointed I can't be the only person who feels this way or am I?

Goals are not everything. You can have both an excellent, entertaining game and few or no goals. Most of us football fans would love to see 4 - 4 or 5 - 4 results, true, because this means the game was crazy and both teams were attacking, attacking and then attacking [8D] You can hardly see this generosity nowadays. Pre WW2 there were MANY goals in football games for example (they played with 4, 5 or 6 attackers LOL).

I find Mourinho irritating - extremely so this season, but I do not understand how he can be said to be "not a great coach". Look at what he has won. So many titles in many countries - he has never been beaten at Stamford Bridge! Having an expensively assembled squad is no guarantee of success.

For starters, having great, world-class players is like err... the 80% of the job done... To Mourinho it's the 0% because when he wins it's always - and I mean ALWAYS- "I won x, I won y, I won z...". On the other hand, when he loses it is never -and I mean NEVER- his fault. It's the referee's or his players's fault (or some other conspiracy).

Having said that, Mourinho only trains big mega expensive teams (except his first Porto). He's said more than once that he would never train "mediocre" teams.

So he's got the caviar (world-class players) but he still plays as if he was in charge of let's say Fulham. This alone does not make him a great coach on my book, sorry. And I concede I might be wrong. In other words, he has nothing to offer to football. Nothing new (the Italians already invented the catenaccio), nothing revolutionary.

Oh yes, he is the prefered coach of the mega-millionaires. "Gimme your world class players, they will be playing like a small team (forget a beautiful spectacle), I'll give (with my behaviour) a bad name to your club, I'll poke other coaches in the eye, I will threaten kids..."

Sooner or later he is going to run out of these great squads... and that day he will finally disappear from the map. And that will be great news for football [;)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I find Mourinho irritating - extremely so this season, but I do not understand how he can be said to be "not a great coach". Look at what he has won. So many titles in many countries - he has never been beaten at Stamford Bridge! Having an expensively assembled squad is no guarantee of success.

For starters, having great, world-class players is like err... the 80% of the job done... To Mourinho it's the 0% because when he wins it's always - and I mean ALWAYS- "I won x, I won y, I won z...". On the other hand, when he loses it is never -and I mean NEVER- his fault. It's the referee's or his players's fault (or some other conspiracy).

Having said that, Mourinho only trains big mega expensive teams (except his first Porto). He's said more than once that he would never train "mediocre" teams.

So he's got the caviar (world-class players) but he still plays as if he was in charge of let's say Fulham. This alone does not make him a great coach on my book, sorry. And I concede I might be wrong. In other words, he has nothing to offer to football. Nothing new (the Italians already invented the catenaccio), nothing revolutionary.

Oh yes, he is the prefered coach of the mega-millionaires. "Gimme your world class players, they will be playing like a small team (forget a beautiful spectacle), I'll give (with my behaviour) a bad name to your club, I'll poke other coaches in the eye, I will threaten kids..."

Sooner or later he is going to run out of these great squads... and that day he will finally disappear from the map. And that will be great news for football [;)]

warspite1

TD I thought you were a serious footie fan [&:]. How can you say having world class players is 80% of the job done? How many world class players does it take? what if the opposition has world class players? What if those world class players the opposition have are world classier? [:D]

So you are essentially saying he won the Champions League with Porto (but must have got lucky because I'm damn sure there were teams in the competition that year with better - many better - players) and then went to Chelsea, Inter and Real and had better players or else he would not have had success. You sure he had better players at Inter than did Barcelona?? Really?

So by definition are you also saying that managers cannot fail if they have world class players? Well that can't be true - look at the procession of failed managers who have had decent teams that they have destroyed. What happened to Inter after Mourinho left?

You pick out Mourinho for saying nothing is ever his fault? Have a look at the great sayings of Ferguson or Wenger - in fact any successful manager.

I tell you what, I wish Spurs had a manager as rubbish as Mourinho.

I love a good football debate [:)]

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
TD I thought you were a serious footie fan [&:]. How can you say having world class players is 80% of the job done? How many world class players does it take? what if the opposition has world class players? What if those world class players the opposition have are world classier? [:D]

The players is what really matters (in fact most --if not all-- coaches say so). I am dead serious. And I would say the history of this sport agrees with me. Look at the winners (the rule, not the exception). When a club or national team (ie World Cup) has had a Golden Generation, they have basically won or really close (Holland [:(]). It's simple as that, no need to make it complicated. This is no rocket science.

I am not saying the job of the coach is not important. But when you have plenty of caviar at hand, losing is up to you (winning is never guaranteed, agreed). I will argue till the cows come home: I cannot consider Mourinho a great coach (effective, yes) because he always plays like small teams do. Do you remember a Champions League match in which Etoo (an attacker) was playing as a wing-back? That's what weak squads do. And that's what Mourinho is "offering". Greatness? Never.

And this when he's got many resources.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1
TD I thought you were a serious footie fan [&:]. How can you say having world class players is 80% of the job done? How many world class players does it take? what if the opposition has world class players? What if those world class players the opposition have are world classier? [:D]

The players is what really matters (in fact most --if not all-- coaches say so). I am dead serious. And I would say the history of this sport agrees with me. Look at the winners (the rule, not the exception). When a club or national team (ie World Cup) has had a Golden Generation, they have basically won or really close (Holland [:(]). It's simple as that, no need to make it complicated. This is no rocket science.

I am not saying the job of the coach is not important. But when you have plenty of caviar at hand, losing is up to you (winning is never guaranteed, agreed). I will argue till the cows come home: I cannot consider Mourinho a great coach (effective, yes) because he always plays like small teams do. Do you remember a Champions League match in which Etoo (an attacker) was playing as a wing-back? That's what weak squads do. And that's what Mourinho is "offering". Greatness? Never.

And this when he's got many resources.

warspite1

What does a small team play like? Wigan are a small team but Martinez had them playing proper, passing football.

To win TWO Champions League's - one with Porto, to be unbeaten at home with Chelsea in about four years, to have been in management for 10 seasons and to have won the title in SEVEN of those. How is that not the record of a great?

Every football fan wants to see their side winning trophies and playing "shexy football" at the same time. It rarely happens - certainly not for any length of time. The Dutch teams of 74 and 78, the Hungarian team of 54 - if only they had had better managers. Being world class wasn't enough for them.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

What does a small team play like? Wigan are a small team but Martinez had them playing proper, passing football.

It depends who they are facing. If they face a similar or weak team they might attack and go for the jugular. If they face a superior team (ie better players) they will park the bus and counter-attack.

And this (parking the bus) is exactly what Mourinho systematically does (despite he has REALLY expensive teams) when he's facing great squads. But here the point is that Wigan, Fulham or any other weak team have an alibi: fighting toe-to-toe with let's say Bayern Munchen is a mere suicide. There's a huge quality gap.

Mourinho's alibi? None. He could perfectly go for the jugular and finish his opponents in big style. Therefore his contribution to football is err... more parking the bus, the plane and the players's cars.

Think about this: the guy does not give a rat's ar** about his teams. It's "I won champions leagues", and never his fault when they lose. He is only interested about his curriculum.

I have really bad news for him. His teams will NEVER be remembered. And I mean remembered as the Holland of the 70s, the mythical Brazil of the 60s or the über German Football Machine, or the clinical Italian squads.

[TulliusDetritus]

And anyway you make it sound as if he was making miracles. He is training squads with massive budgets. He (or anyone else in charge) is expected to win, or at least getting close [8D]

And by the way, maybe he won't be winning anything this year. At Real Madrid he won *few* titles by the way. And this despite the club had never spent so much money *before*. Massive amounts of money and we have to believe this guy is some sort of genius (especially when his recipe is parking the bus!)? [;)]

Are you sure many guys would not be able to more or less replicate this?

[warspite1]

Okay, forget about what I think - so how many managers have replicated what Mourinho has done? In the history of the game? You can count them on the fingers of one hand.

Yes, if you have expensively assembled squads chairmen like you to win a trophy or two [;)]. But it does not always happen. As I say, what did Benitez do to Inter Milan, what has David Moyes done with a Manchester United team that won the league by a dozen points or something? How much money did Mancini spend?? He won one league title (and one FA Cup) by the slimmest of margins, relying on a freak two goal spree in injury time, at home, against lowly QPR - and that was after Manchester United (most unusually for them) threw away a points advantage in the last few games of the season. What did he do in the Champions League? Never got out of the group stage. By the way, the FA Cup win was by the slimmest of margins too - 1-0 against lowly Stoke City.

From what you have said it is obvious you do not like Mourinho as a person and you do not like the style of football he plays. On the first point I think that is entirely understandable, and on the second point that is entirely understandable [;)]. Fine, no problem. Okay, he is not a likeable character and his teams do not play "shexy football"; neither of these disqualify him from being considered a great manager. Football management is a results based business - and Mourinho gets results. He wins the big, most important trophies. Look at his Champions League results - and that includes "losing" to Liverpool in the semi-final with the goal that never was, and the total travesty that was the defeat to Barcelona.

And while we are talking about "shexy football" I don't recall Manchester United ever being lauded for their style of play. Arsenal, yes, but not Manchester United. Ferguson was just as unlikeable as Mourinho - always moaning, never his fault, always the referee, or the cheating opposition or the colour of his team's away shirt [8|] then we had "Fergie time" (by the way that is proven to be a fact - when Manchester United were losing at Old Trafford, the injury time was longer than when they were winning!!) So was Ferguson not a great manager? That would be a difficult one to argue.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Football management is a results based business - and Mourinho gets results.

That's the whole thing [8D]

Mourinho is the self-appointed coach of the mega-millionaires, some sort of toy. But there is a problem... since he left Chelsea and joined Real Madrid he's won few titles (last 3 years?). So he's basically failed (despite the massive amounts of money). Let's imagine he's not winning anything this year (league or champions league)...

Oh oh, the various mega-millionaires and oligarchs might drop the toy after all! And given that the guy is not interested in the plebs (non-elite teams), bye bye Mourinho!

Then he will spend the rest of his life as let's say a pundit on TV. Prepare yourself [:D] He will constantly remind the poor audience that "I won x champions leagues, I won y leagues, etc. etc." and when things went wrong "I trusted my players but they failed me..." [:D]

The guy is beyond a joke. Do you remember some weeks ago, vs West Ham? He bashed, insulted that team...

"It's very difficult to play a football match where only one team wants to play, very difficult," HAHA
"A match is about two teams playing. This match was only one team playing and another team not" HAHAHA
"West Ham played 19th-century' football"
"Visitors' tactics were not worthy of the Premier League"

He, the ANTI-football buffoon saying that. He's done systematically that when he's faced big squads! Always! He forgot to add that West Ham had a good alibi (they are weak).

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Football management is a results based business - and Mourinho gets results.

That's the whole thing [8D]

Mourinho is the self-appointed coach of the mega-millionaires, some sort of toy. But there is a problem... since he left Chelsea and joined Real Madrid he's won few titles (last 3 years?). So he's basically failed (despite the massive amounts of money). Let's imagine he's not winning anything this year (league or champions league)...

warspite1

Since he left Chelsea in 2008 and joined Madrid?

He joined Inter Milan
2008-2009 - Serie A Champions + Italian SuperCup
2009-2010 - Serie A Champions, Champions League and Coppa Italia (First Italian team to ever win the treble)
He Joined Real Madrid
2010-2011 - Copa del Rey (Real's first trophy since 2008)
2011-2012 - La Liga Champions + Supercopa de Espana
2012-2013 - No trophies.

So that's 3 league titles out of 5 seasons. He finished runner up in the other two season at Madrid and was Champions League semi-finalist 3 years running. You seriously call that failure?? Really??

Exactly what have Inter won since Mourinho left?

And if you say Mourinho will win nothing at Chelsea then its fair to venture that Ancelotti will win nothing at Real - so that's no trophies this season for Real despite spending over £100m on Gareth Bale.

[TulliusDetritus]

And? Before he arrived to Italy the Inter was already one of the strongest teams in Italy (no Cinderella) [;)] And then (as always) massive amounts of money were poured.

As for Real Madrid every coach over there is expected to win (business as usual). Even Pellegrini won a league there, and no one says he's a genius (and he might grab another league in England go figure). That's the normal thing to do. But make no mistake, Mourinho was brought to grab the Decima (tenth European Cup that is). He had three chances (three years) and failed.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
And if you say Mourinho will win nothing at Chelsea then its fair to venture that Ancelotti will win nothing at Real - so that's no trophies this season for Real despite spending over £100m on Gareth Bale.

I am not saying that. I hope he does not win anything, that's for sure [:D] The league it's complicated and in the Champions League anything can happen. One thing is certain, if he makes it to the final and plays vs Bayern I guarantee you that he is going to park the bus, the plane and the player's cars. Oh, and Etoo is available! He will be ordered to pull back (possibly before minute 15) and play again as a wing-back [:D]

He's making history, no doubt!