Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - The air war in China- DBB, SLs, PDU OFF

[princep01]

Greyjoy, are you pessimistic by nature? The Haruna, a CA and 2DDs are bound for the repair yards for a bit, while most of Force Z is sunk or removed as a threat for many months....and you are fretting??? And, the Singawang invasion force is protected from harm....and you are whining? It is war, lad! There is no crying in war. Eggs must be broken to make a palatable omelette. All I see is objectives largely achieved, the enemy rendered fairly impotent in the critical SRA, and your precious landing force still in position to land on its objective in the near future. Based on your report, you are exempt from torment today.

Bolton

[jmalter]

hi Greyjoy, this is the last time I'll be reading or posting to your AAR, I've decided to stick w/ obvert for this game. Best of luck to you.

Lord Bolton's comment above reminds me of a passage from one of Patrick O'Brian's books. An 18th-century naval action is imminent, & as the ship beats to quarters, Captain Aubrey tells ship's surgeon Maturin to go below to his action-station in the midshipman's berth. "Expect some broken omelettes, presently!"

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: princep01

Greyjoy, are you pessimistic by nature? The Haruna, a CA and 2DDs are bound for the repair yards for a bit, while most of Force Z is sunk or removed as a threat for many months....and you are fretting??? And, the Singawang invasion force is protected from harm....and you are whining? It is war, lad! There is no crying in war. Eggs must be broken to make a palatable omelette. All I see is objectives largely achieved, the enemy rendered fairly impotent in the critical SRA, and your precious landing force still in position to land on its objective in the near future. Based on your report, you are exempt from torment today.

Bolton

My Master,

I am sorry if i gave you the idea that i was stating a pessimistic pov. It was not. I think the opening went 80% well. The PH attack was a good one, considering it was done with only 5 CVs. A BB sunk and 3 Others out for at least 1 year is almost the best you can get in a DBB strike.
For sure if Obvert hadn't foresee my intentions at Singawang it would have been a better turn, but i can't really complain. Without Force Z the allies are basically left with the Asian Fleet, which is not enough to stop the japanese onslaught in the DEI...at least for the first weeks.
Sure it could have been better. I preferred to tangle with Pallister at night and not in daytime and clear weather. I have lost 1 DD and have at least 1 CA which can easily sink in the next hours, but the Haruna, if she can avoid subs, should be fine. Kongo and the Atago can still fight and will remain on the battle front.
Tomorrow we'll shock attack at Kuantan and Kotha Baru and then we'll pursue the enemy right their nests.
The KB will move towards Wake to cover the landings and then will shift South.
The Ryujo CVL have already upgraded to 36 Zero at Takao and is now moving to join the Kaga.
Ziuho and 4 BBs are moving towards Bab, in order to support the upcoming landings at Mindanao and Menado, in the meanwhile the 16th Div will recombine in lower Luzon, while the 48th Div and the 65th bde will clear the upper part of the Island, pushing the enemy towards Clark as usual.
The Thai Army will march towards Burma, while the 33rd and the 21ts ID are already on ships moving towards Malaya. The 2nd will be moving in the next 2 days.
Engineers are already assembling at Fusan, in order to start building Port and AF ASAP. convoys are already loading resources from Fusan and Hokkaido.

Next turn i'll also bild up the Vehicles factories up to....mmm...don't really remember which was the perfect number... anyone?

[Barb]

180 is not enough Go for 200 at least. But you can convert some armament factories too

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Barb

180 is not enough Go for 200 at least. But you can convert some armament factories too

Thanks! That's what I was looking for. I'll see what I can convert from armament factories. I remember I've done that in my previous game but don't really remember the balance I had found...

Anyway, talking about economy...

I changed a lot my mind lately. I consider HI points much less important. To be honest, what Japan lacks in 1944/45 is never HI stockpiles, but supplies (and fuel obviously), never HIs.
HIs are needed to build a/c in late phases of the game, but planes cannot fly without supplies, so it really doesn't matter if you can build hordes of Kamikazes is these Kamis cannot fly.

This consideration leads me towards a new approach to HI savings.
Will build ALL the major ships that are listed. Shinano, Musashi, all the other CVs and CLs that are on the list. Will accelerate everything I can. Will also build some CVL/CVEs too and even some transports (the bigger ones) and many aux ships.
Supplies can't really be stockpiled. You can avoid building too many bases and too many forts here and there and you can avoid wasting too many supplies on RnD efforts, but nothing else you can do. The only thing Japan really needs to do is to keep the flow of fuel from DEI to HI. Nothing more. Will be short of supplies whatever I do.
So...
The strategy will be focused on keeping my strategic goal as safe as possible as long as possible.

[ny59giants]

Don't forget your two Ind Mixed Bde...4th and 21st. [:-]

[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
This consideration leads me towards a new approach to HI savings.
Will build ALL the major ships that are listed. Shinano, Musashi, all the other CVs and CLs that are on the list. Will accelerate everything I can. Will also build some CVL/CVEs too and even some transports (the bigger ones) and many aux ships.
Supplies can't really be stockpiled. You can avoid building too many bases and too many forts here and there and you can avoid wasting too many supplies on RnD efforts, but nothing else you can do. The only thing Japan really needs to do is to keep the flow of fuel from DEI to HI. Nothing more. Will be short of supplies whatever I do.

That's a very interesting take on the economy. A few comments on this.

First, unnecessary ships use a lot of fuel and will provide your opponent with "free VP". I know you don't play for VP, but you will eventually lose because of them. One strategy you might want to pursue (depending on whether you find it gamey or not) is to start building many ships, but stop them short of their delivery date, and only release them if you need them.

As for supply, you are right that factory repairs and building and conversions are your main expense, and air production is the area where you spend most of your supplies. Now PDU Off allows you to plan almost everything in advance (you have all the data in tracker), I believe you can optimise your SP spending by minimizing the number of factory conversions and increases. This might mean some delays in production, but keep in mind that every point built or repaired is worth 1000 SP. I'm pretty sure this is where your main SP saving will come from.

Along the same line, I think it is also interesting to try and estimate the cost of base building. I think it is less than you imagine. What costs a lot, on the other hand, are useless battles.

Finally, and this is just me rambling, you have some control on the amount of supplies you produce throughout the game. China, with its huge light industry is an essential part of it, and if your opponent runs for the mountains and abandons the city (this is the current wisdom amaong AFB), he is helping you. Some of your heavy industry also has a pretty good RoI as far as increasing goes. You might want to increase those manchurian factories early on.

Francois

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
This consideration leads me towards a new approach to HI savings.
Will build ALL the major ships that are listed. Shinano, Musashi, all the other CVs and CLs that are on the list. Will accelerate everything I can. Will also build some CVL/CVEs too and even some transports (the bigger ones) and many aux ships.
Supplies can't really be stockpiled. You can avoid building too many bases and too many forts here and there and you can avoid wasting too many supplies on RnD efforts, but nothing else you can do. The only thing Japan really needs to do is to keep the flow of fuel from DEI to HI. Nothing more. Will be short of supplies whatever I do.

That's a very interesting take on the economy. A few comments on this.

First, unnecessary ships use a lot of fuel and will provide your opponent with "free VP". I know you don't play for VP, but you will eventually lose because of them. One strategy you might want to pursue (depending on whether you find it gamey or not) is to start building many ships, but stop them short of their delivery date, and only release them if you need them.

As for supply, you are right that factory repairs and building and conversions are your main expense, and air production is the area where you spend most of your supplies. Now PDU Off allows you to plan almost everything in advance (you have all the data in tracker), I believe you can optimise your SP spending by minimizing the number of factory conversions and increases. This might mean some delays in production, but keep in mind that every point built or repaired is worth 1000 SP. I'm pretty sure this is where your main SP saving will come from.

Along the same line, I think it is also interesting to try and estimate the cost of base building. I think it is less than you imagine. What costs a lot, on the other hand, are useless battles.

Finally, and this is just me rambling, you have some control on the amount of supplies you produce throughout the game. China, with its huge light industry is an essential part of it, and if your opponent runs for the mountains and abandons the city (this is the current wisdom amaong AFB), he is helping you. Some of your heavy industry also has a pretty good RoI as far as increasing goes. You might want to increase those manchurian factories early on.

Francois

Bonjour Francois!

Sure unnecessary ships drink lots of fuel, but I don't plan to use them if not needed. They can be disbanded in port waiting for some use. Also consider that ships arrive with full bunkers so these may also be extra fuel added...am I wrong?
I'm planning my air factories just like that. I don0t plan to convert any factory to some other lines than the one initially set. I'm so used to play with RnD ON that my mind is already on that track. However, even if you don't convert, repairing and enlarging those factories costs millions of supplies anyway...
How much is spent to build a base? And to build forts? I've looked around and found some charts, but they are not that understandable...at least for me [:o]

I will try to maximise supplies expenditure much more than HI expenditure. Let's see what i'll be able to do. In my last game I ended up in 1944 almost dry [:(]

[GreyJoy]

Erik is abroad and has very little time these days. The 2nd allied turn is a beast, so he's gonna take his time.

In the while, I'm considering my options for the upcoming weeks. With only one thing in mind: speed. Don't get scared by the first allied possible counteroffensives. I know the allies are short of everything in this moment. Gotta be very focused.

One thing i'll do in this game is to get to Cocos Island ASAP. Won't make the same mistake I made against QBall. No matter the cost. Cocos will be mine before the fall of Java.

On the RnD...

Here's the final list:

Oscar IIa: 7x30 factories

A6M2Rufe: 3x30
A6M3: 3x30
A6M2Sen Baku: 1x30

KI-84a: 7x30

KI-44a: 3x30

KI-45KAIa: 3x30

N1K1: 3x30

J2M3: 2x30

KI-61a: 3x30

KI-61c: 1x30

These are the only RnD factories i'll be bringing to 30. All the other factories will be left as they are, so to say the models won't be RnDed and i'll simply let them arrive and get to production


Now, what to do with NOPAC...mmmm....
Don't know if I'm missing something but I remember that in my previous game there was a (*) TF at Ominato on turn 1, ready to load some base forces and get immediately to Addak... didn't found anything in this scenario... so if ever i'll be in the Aleutias not before the 15th December... mmm... isn't that too risky?
We'll see...

Anyway...now the KB will move back towards Wake area, supporting the landings there, then will refuel and move south, to support the invasions of Rabaul, PM and then Horn Island

[veji1]

Cocos, Horn, Andamans, all those outer festungen that are key in either hitting an allied player that tries to bypass them, or force him to lose time and ressources trying to conquer them, with limited support from close land bases. They are, effectively, the first line of your defense.

[GreyJoy]

yes, I completely agree.

Ponape will be another one!

Not sure if Port Blair or another one of the Adamans.

Horn, however, for sure.

All these bases (except for cocos) will have mines, heavy AA, CD guns a solid garrisons...

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

yes, I completely agree.

Ponape will be another one!

Not sure if Port Blair or another one of the Adamans.

Horn, however, for sure.

All these bases (except for cocos) will have mines, heavy AA, CD guns a solid garrisons...

I like Port Blair because it starts with a port. And the others, as far as I remember, have SBS 0 for port. No bueno. Not that you have to build the port up (and I wouldn't, because he'll be using it eventually and Rangoon is right there anyway), but it does help right at the start.

[Cribtop]

Definitely add Port Blair to the list of defended outposts, IMHO.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

yes, I completely agree.

Ponape will be another one!

Not sure if Port Blair or another one of the Adamans.

Horn, however, for sure.

All these bases (except for cocos) will have mines, heavy AA, CD guns a solid garrisons...

GreyJoy, I will be interested to see your OOB for these outposts. I have not been able to find enough CD guns of adequate caliber to make any difference.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

yes, I completely agree.

Ponape will be another one!

Not sure if Port Blair or another one of the Adamans.

Horn, however, for sure.

All these bases (except for cocos) will have mines, heavy AA, CD guns a solid garrisons...

GreyJoy, I will be interested to see your OOB for these outposts. I have not been able to find enough CD guns of adequate caliber to make any difference.

The big ones are the Special Base Forces, but in general look at any (IJN) Base Force - they should have CD Guns, even if they're just 8cm. Those are enough to keep your opponent honest in their TF composition.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

yes, I completely agree.

Ponape will be another one!

Not sure if Port Blair or another one of the Adamans.

Horn, however, for sure.

All these bases (except for cocos) will have mines, heavy AA, CD guns a solid garrisons...

GreyJoy, I will be interested to see your OOB for these outposts. I have not been able to find enough CD guns of adequate caliber to make any difference.

Very few, I know, but I agree with Lokasenna: mines+CD guns, even if minor ones, are enough if forts are high.
The plan is to bring the Wake Det ASAP to Horn Island, along with a couple of heavy AA units, a division and a couple of naval base forces.
If I manage to get to 6 forts, that place may become nasty.
The Combined 8th SNLF unit should go to Port Blair or, better, to Guam.
The 3rd Special base force may be up to the task if sent to sensible spots like Sabang or Biak. We'll see.
These three are the best ones as far as I know...

[MrKane]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

yes, I completely agree.

Ponape will be another one!

Not sure if Port Blair or another one of the Adamans.

Horn, however, for sure.

All these bases (except for cocos) will have mines, heavy AA, CD guns a solid garrisons...

GreyJoy, I will be interested to see your OOB for these outposts. I have not been able to find enough CD guns of adequate caliber to make any difference.

Very few, I know, but I agree with Lokasenna: mines+CD guns, even if minor ones, are enough if forts are high.
The plan is to bring the Wake Det ASAP to Horn Island, along with a couple of heavy AA units, a division and a couple of naval base forces.
If I manage to get to 6 forts, that place may become nasty.
The Combined 8th SNLF unit should go to Port Blair or, better, to Guam.
The 3rd Special base force may be up to the task if sent to sensible spots like Sabang or Biak. We'll see.
These three are the best ones as far as I know...

Nico, at Horn you will need some AA too. CD does not fire with high disruption and low morale.
But generally it will be nasty place. Horn Island is located in stairs hex, you will get bonus to minefield effect.

[GreyJoy]

Yes Tom, heavy AA units. Those with 10cm guns and, hopefully, also some 8cm guns too.
Yes, I've learnt a lot from you about the use of mines for Japan! You spanked my butt with those mines!!!

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Yes Tom, heavy AA units. Those with 10cm guns and, hopefully, also some 8cm guns too.
Yes, I've learnt a lot from you about the use of mines for Japan! You spanked my butt with those mines!!!

Hi GJ. Gonna be reading but not commenting much because I will look at Obverts AAR as well. Of course, you no longer need advice anyways..[;)]

[GreyJoy]

Dec 8, 1941

Erik sent another SAG towards Sinkawang. CLs Mauritius and Danae, along with 4 DDs (these are the damaged ships that start at Singapore). They tangle with what was left of Tanaka's TF. The brave japanese commander holds on and repulses the enemy without much damage, while 2 SNLF units, 1 Air HQ and 1 base force land on the beaches safe!

The usual PTs Attacks at my landings at Lyngayen and San Fernando. Easily repulsed by TBs and DDs.

The dutch subs score some hits, sinking 3 xAKs in the gulf of Siam. Not a big deal. I knew i had too few escorts but couldn't help.

Erik also moves his Singapore bombers to Sinkawang and they manage to sink 4 xAKs...already empty

Very few air mission flown. Nothing particular to report.

KB moved west towards Wake, while the japanese forces shock attack Miri (50 oil and ref damaged ), Kuantan, Kotha Baru, San Fernando and Lyngayen. Everywhere is a success, with 2 PA Divisions mauled and 3 CW Brigades out of the war.
The enemy is also railing back to Singapore from Alor Star, Georgetown, Taiping. Usual stuff.

In China he's running for the Hills everywhere.

Same in lower Burma. Everybody is moving towards Rangoon from Tavoy, Mergui, Victoria point etc...

force Z is seen limping back towards Java.

allied transports fleeing from the PI towards Legaspi and the pacific, while from Singapore Northwestwards towards Ceylon.

No sign of Boise, Houston or the Marblehead.

CAP already estabilished at San Fernando, Kuantan, Kotha Baru and Miri.

The first res convoys are estabilished from Hokkaido and Fusan to HI.

Lots of ship conversions underway.

Everything is on the move.

CVL Ryuho got her 36 claudes upgraded to Zero at Takao and now is moving to join the Kaga in the Gulf of Siam.
4 BBs are moving to Bab along with the CVL Zihuo, while 2 more BBs and 4 CLs are moving towards Truk to operate in the SOPAC.

Next landings: Kuching, Kudat, Brunei, Sorong, Tarawa, Makin etc...

Usual stuff.

Night Time Surface Combat, near Singkawang at 56,88, Range 9,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 1
DD Asashio
DD Akatsuki, Shell hits 4, on fire

Allied Ships
CL Danae, Shell hits 1
CL Mauritius, Shell hits 1
DD Vendetta
DD Encounter
DD Isis
DD Jupiter, Shell hits 1


The Akatsuki is lost to firestorm... the 3rd lost DD of the war...gotta pay attention to DD losses...costed me much against QBall...