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warspite1
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RE: European Championships

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

And? Before he arrived to Italy the Inter was already one of the strongest teams in Italy (no Cinderella) [;)] And then (as always) massive amounts of money were poured.

As for Real Madrid every coach over there is expected to win (business as usual). Even Pellegrini won a league there, and no one says he's a genius (and he might grab another league in England go figure). That's the normal thing to do. But make no mistake, Mourinho was brought to grab the Decima (tenth European Cup that is). He had three chances (three years) and failed.
warspite1

No he didn't. he won nothing at Real Madrid and got sacked. Have a look at the money he spent too…….Ronaldo, Benzema and Alonso - that well over £100m.

You keep saying about "massive amounts of money" but it would be good if you could come up with examples e.g. what Mourinho has spent compared to other, far less successful, managers of big clubs in Europe.

Inter was one of the strongest teams? Why do you think Mancini was sacked? Did he get past the last 16 in the Champions League?

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RE: European Championships

Post by TulliusDetritus »

Oops, yes, my mistake about Pellegrini. He had harvested the maximum number of points though (a record): 96. But of course he had to face err... Barcelona (when they were on fire). That same Barcelona trashed Mourinho's Real Madrid 5 - 0. But no matter what, if you are in charge of RM you are supposed to win. It's a yes or yes scenario.

As for Inter, this team is -historically speaking- some sort of Cinderella. They won 2 European Cups (Champions League of the time) in the 60s then *poof* more or less disappeared. Before Mourinho arrived, the team had managed to get to the top though: winning the Serie A. In other words, he was taking advantage of the momentum, no matter the sacking of the previous manager.

Mourinho is doing the rounds of the *strongest + lots of money* teams. If you want to know if other guy could do the same you need a coach that a) toured the European elite teams and b) had lots of money, and I will add c) he will play like small teams play [;)]

And given that his recipe is "parking the bus" (with really skilled players at his disposal), he manages to lose few matches. The price to pay? You're offering elite teams to play as if they were about to be relegated. It's ruthless and efficient (I don't deny this, numbers speak for themselves). But it's cheap and miserable. That's why I said his teams will never be remembered. That's why I said his contribution to football is basically zero (his curriculum only matter to him).

What kind of fans love him? Those who have been really hungry, homeless (Inter, golden age in the 60s, that's a long time waiting; resurrection in the 2000s), Chelsea, Real Madrid (they were facing an utter Football Machine in their domestic league: Barcelona). Or we might call it desperation: "make us play like a small, weak team but please bag titles for us!"... [8|]

But that makes him very vulnerable. He's only got a few bullets (elite teams). The day his recipe will not work (I insist, he failed at RM: he was supposed to bring the Champions League trophy) it's over. The end is near, I smell it! [:D]

That or... eating the humble pie. Mourinho doing that?? Not a chance! [8D]
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RE: European Championships

Post by warspite1 »

You've got to hand it to Spurs - 2-0 down after 4 minutes and have now missed a penalty.....one word - QUALITY.
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RE: European Championships

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Oops, yes, my mistake about Pellegrini. He had harvested the maximum number of points though (a record): 96. But of course he had to face err... Barcelona (when they were on fire). That same Barcelona trashed Mourinho's Real Madrid 5 - 0. But no matter what, if you are in charge of RM you are supposed to win. It's a yes or yes scenario.

As for Inter, this team is -historically speaking- some sort of Cinderella. They won 2 European Cups (Champions League of the time) in the 60s then *poof* more or less disappeared. Before Mourinho arrived, the team had managed to get to the top though: winning the Serie A. In other words, he was taking advantage of the momentum, no matter the sacking of the previous manager.

Mourinho is doing the rounds of the *strongest + lots of money* teams. If you want to know if other guy could do the same you need a coach that a) toured the European elite teams and b) had lots of money, and I will add c) he will play like small teams play [;)]

And given that his recipe is "parking the bus" (with really skilled players at his disposal), he manages to lose few matches. The price to pay? You're offering elite teams to play as if they were about to be relegated. It's ruthless and efficient (I don't deny this, numbers speak for themselves). But it's cheap and miserable. That's why I said his teams will never be remembered. That's why I said his contribution to football is basically zero (his curriculum only matter to him).

What kind of fans love him? Those who have been really hungry, homeless (Inter, golden age in the 60s, that's a long time waiting; resurrection in the 2000s), Chelsea, Real Madrid (they were facing an utter Football Machine in their domestic league: Barcelona). Or we might call it desperation: "make us play like a small, weak team but please bag titles for us!"... [8|]

But that makes him very vulnerable. He's only got a few bullets (elite teams). The day his recipe will not work (I insist, he failed at RM: he was supposed to bring the Champions League trophy) it's over. The end is near, I smell it! [:D]

That or... eating the humble pie. Mourinho doing that?? Not a chance! [8D]
warspite1

Sorry but every statement shows that your point of view is based on dislike for the man because you are not even treating results in similar fashion. You were wrong about Pellegrini but then point to his "record points score" - so what he still lost? But you won't accept it when Mourinho wins stuff - let alone come second.... That is not being objective - just biased. Equally you point to Pellegrini and that they only lost because Barcelona "were on fire". Once again, Mourinho is allowed no such excuse when losing to Barcelona...[&:]

With Inter again you miss the point completely. Inter is a big club in Italy, they are expected to win things and yes, Mancini won things - domestically. He was not sacked for that - he was sacked for being totally inept in the Champions league - the biggest trophy in European football - AND the trophy that Mourinho won with...Inter Milan AGAINST..... yep, the mighty Barcelona (you know, the ones that were on fire) and in the process also won the Italian treble which no one else - not even the great AC Milan - has ever achieved.

Mourinho failed at Madrid? Have a look at their record - a lot of very good managers with big reputations have failed at Real Madrid....

I noticed you ignored the challenge re money spent [;)]


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RE: European Championships

Post by TulliusDetritus »

Humm, not sure you follow the Serie A. Inter is the eternal underachiever (because they are one of the Great). They had a golden age in the 60s and after that a loooong period in the wilderness: few random titles here and there. BUT they managed to resurface in the 2000s. And Mourinho had absolutely nothing to do with that. Mancini, the money, etc. etc. did it. In Italy almost everyone hates Milan AC. Inter is the laughing stock though.

As for RM, I mean, if he is such a genius, how come he only managed to grab one league (out of three)? The league -along with the Champions League- is the serious title, by the way, the bread and butter. The Copa del Rey can be grabbed by more teams (a list of 6 or 7 teams). And this 5 - 0 trashing puts things in perspective. The team did not improve a lot after Pellegrini... Yes, he failed. You have to understand these people are on a different level: they must grab the 10th Champions League title. And this, he didn't deliver (three opportunities). He admitted his defeat when he said "I was the one who ended Barcelona supremacy". Boll*cks! There are cycles in football, and Barcelona cycle is over. A natural death.

Yes, his Inter defeated Barcelona (with Etoo playing as a wing-back, as previously mentioned, because that WAS the match). In big style LOL [:D] That match only proves Barcelona was inmensely superior. It also proves, no matter the money he's spent, Mourinho always plays as weak teams. And finally, it also proves in football victory is never guaranteed. And that's indeed a good thing.

Here the Liverpool which won the Champions League in 2005 is teaching us a lesson. They were an average -if not poor- team (and I am talking about players, or the lack of word-class players). They did not park the bus. They were more or less solid and tried to WIN (aka attack) their games. Outplayed in the first part of the final, they managed an astonishing comeback. Inter victory on the other hand had nothing special. Parking the bus is not -and will never be- heroic, except if you happen to be a poor, average team...

The fans all over the world know this. The 2005 final was err... Greatness! And that's something Mourinho will never smell. Remember, the Curriculum Vitae is his problem.

Challenge about the money? So Mourinho played with average, bad players? NEVER.
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RE: European Championships

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Humm, not sure you follow the Serie A. Inter is the eternal underachiever (because they are one of the Great). They had a golden age in the 60s and after that a loooong period in the wilderness: few random titles here and there. BUT they managed to resurface in the 2000s. And Mourinho had absolutely nothing to do with that. Mancini, the money, etc. etc. did it. In Italy almost everyone hates Milan AC. Inter is the laughing stock though.

As for RM, I mean, if he is such a genius, how come he only managed to grab one league (out of three)? The league -along with the Champions League- is the serious title, by the way, the bread and butter. The Copa del Rey can be grabbed by more teams (a list of 6 or 7 teams). And this 5 - 0 trashing puts things in perspective. The team did not improve a lot after Pellegrini... Yes, he failed. You have to understand these people are on a different level: they must grab the 10th Champions League title. And this, he didn't deliver (three opportunities). He admitted his defeat when he said "I was the one who ended Barcelona supremacy". Boll*cks! There are cycles in football, and Barcelona cycle is over. A natural death.

Yes, his Inter defeated Barcelona (with Etoo playing as a wing-back, as previously mentioned, because that WAS the match). In big style LOL [:D] That match only proves Barcelona was inmensely superior. It also proves, no matter the money he's spent, Mourinho always plays as weak teams. And finally, it also proves in football victory is never guaranteed. And that's indeed a good thing.

Here the Liverpool which won the Champions League in 2005 is teaching us a lesson. They were an average -if not poor- team (and I am talking about players, or the lack of word-class players). They did not park the bus. They were more or less solid and tried to WIN (aka attack) their games. Outplayed in the first part of the final, they managed an astonishing comeback. Inter victory on the other hand had nothing special. Parking the bus is not -and will never be- heroic, except if you happen to be a poor, average team...

The fans all over the world know this. The 2005 final was err... Greatness! And that's something Mourinho will never smell. Remember, the Curriculum Vitae is his problem.

Challenge about the money? So Mourinho played with average, bad players? NEVER.
warspite1

Just because Inter Milan had won a few titles before Mourinho makes not the slightest bit of difference to the argument - indeed it strengthens Mourinho's case i.e. he took a strong Inter side and made it better - he made them Champions of Europe....Something Mancini was incapable of.

So what are you saying? Mancini delivered titles on a shoestring? Also if its so damn easy to win - because your predecessor won, then I repeat - what the hell happened with Benitez and every Inter manager since???

But of course its not easy - its not just about having money - you have to spend that money wisely, you have to get the right players. If it was easy then you would not have failures.

You also contradict your argument too many times - the Inter victory was not special - but you admitted Barcelona was immensely superior...er that makes the victory special.....

I am not saying Mourinho played with bad or average players. I AM saying you are exaggerating how much his success is due to money compared with other managers - most of whom are immeasurably less successful. If only Mourinho spends money then who bought: Ronaldo, Messi, Naymar, Kaka, Torres [8|], Bale, Zidane, Ibrahimovic etc etc etc.
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RE: European Championships

Post by TulliusDetritus »

I told you at the beginning of the discussion that having great players is 80% of the job. If you don't have them you really have to struggle and have tons of good luck (as Liverpool in 2005).

Why do you think Mourinho is constantly talking about a striker? Because he needs it. No striker = nothing to do (no matter Mourinho, the Big Man, the Genius himself is in charge). So here you have a coach saying "having great players is essential"... This is a *minimum* I also said that victory is never guaranteed. And I also said Mourinho IS effective.

Inter victory was not special because Mourinho had a Porsche but used it as a cart... Liverpool in 2005 had a cart and used it as a Porsche... Can you see the difference? It's the difference between greatness and *nothing special* Liverpool could have perfectly used their cart as a... cart... They didn't, and that's why that match will be remembered by fans (and I am talking about neutrals). Mourinho's finals remembered? Ehhh???

I am not exagerating. It is really simple: the 80% of the success (arbitrary I know) is having the great players first. And only big money (sometimes luck) buys them. I already told you what his recipe is. Again: "gimme that Rolls Royce, I'll use it as a cart"...

Give Mourinho (or Guardiola or Heynckes or Ferguson or whoever important in the business) mediocre teams, those who struggle in the middle of the table. And NO extra, mega money...

What I said about Inter is that Mourinho happened to arrive there (what a coincidence; nah, he would never dare sully his curriculum vitae) when the team had ended that long period in the wilderness. Mourinho is no fool. He is only going to places where victory is at hand... Strong teams and/or money money money (to buy the great players). What happened to Inter afer him? The end of a cycle perhaps, which started in the early 2000s?

All these are subjective opinions. I don't pretend them to be 100% right, by the way [:)]

But it's a fact that he's got mega expensive (aka skilled) players and yet plays as small teams play (the teams which only have *average* and *poor* players). That IS his sin. To me that is. It's a philosophical issue, as you can see [:D]

And that clownish attitude doesn't help either.
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RE: European Championships

Post by Orm »

It takes skill to make star players play disciplined defensive football.

Also remember that Chelsea had spend a lot of money before Mourinho but they got no titles. But with Mourinho they won titles.
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RE: European Championships

Post by warspite1 »

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree as we are at polar opposite ends.

I am afraid I simply do not understand how you can say that great managers cannot take "mediocre" teams and make them great.

How did Sir Alex Ferguson come to manage Manchester United in the first place? That man broke the Glasgow duopoly of Celtic and Rangers with Aberdeen - an amazing achievement - and he won a European trophy in the process. How did Mourinho come to manage Chelsea? - Abramovich and his millions were not exactly spoiled for choice. Er, maybe winning back to back European trophies - including the CHAMPIONS League with Porto helped that decision?....

Very few managers CHOOSE to go backwards in their careers - unless they have to because they have mucked up their CV. Why is it a surprise that Mourinho (having deservedly earned such a great reputation as a coach) does not want to manage lesser clubs?

Having 60%, 70%, 80% great players means nothing if the manager cannot coach, cannot win the physiological battle, cannot instil belief in his players, cannot choose the right tactics.

Mourinho is unlikeable in so many ways. But NOT a great coach? That is simply not true.
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RE: European Championships

Post by Orm »

Watching second half of Wigan versus Arsenal. 0-0 so far.
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RE: European Championships

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You've got to hand it to Spurs - 2-0 down after 4 minutes and have now missed a penalty.....one word - QUALITY.
So what about the rest of the match? It ended in a 3-3 draw?
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RE: European Championships

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You've got to hand it to Spurs - 2-0 down after 4 minutes and have now missed a penalty.....one word - QUALITY.
So what about the rest of the match? It ended in a 3-3 draw?
Warspite1

1-point against relegation threatened WBA. Great.......
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RE: European Championships

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Orm

Watching second half of Wigan versus Arsenal. 0-0 so far.
warspite1

Damn - Arsenal equalised... Only one winner now [:(]
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RE: European Championships

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You've got to hand it to Spurs - 2-0 down after 4 minutes and have now missed a penalty.....one word - QUALITY.
So what about the rest of the match? It ended in a 3-3 draw?
Warspite1

1-point against relegation threatened WBA. Great.......
I was not saying it was great. But with that beginning many teams would have folded like a cheap suit.
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RE: European Championships

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm



So what about the rest of the match? It ended in a 3-3 draw?
Warspite1

1-point against relegation threatened WBA. Great.......
I was not saying it was great. But with that beginning many teams would have folded like a cheap suit.
warspite1

The fact we did not fold (for a change) says more about the limitations of WBA than our shower.
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RE: European Championships

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Warspite1

1-point against relegation threatened WBA. Great.......
I was not saying it was great. But with that beginning many teams would have folded like a cheap suit.
warspite1

The fact we did not fold (for a change) says more about the limitations of WBA than our shower.
Yes. I am a bit disappointed with how The Spurs have performed this year. [:(]
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RE: European Championships

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

Watching second half of Wigan versus Arsenal. 0-0 so far.
warspite1

Damn - Arsenal equalised... Only one winner now [:(]
I think that the equaliser was well deserved. And now I get to watch extra time as a bonus. [:)]
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RE: European Championships

Post by Orm »

Regarding "Fergie Time".

Have they considered if the other teams attempt to delay the game more when they play against the "great" teams and if that is part of the reason for the extra extra time?
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RE: European Championships

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

Watching second half of Wigan versus Arsenal. 0-0 so far.
warspite1

Damn - Arsenal equalised... Only one winner now [:(]
I think that the equaliser was well deserved. And now I get to watch extra time as a bonus. [:)]
warspite1

As a Spurs fan, nothing is deserved for Arsenal unless its bad [;)]
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RE: European Championships

Post by warspite1 »

Rats.....[:@]
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