All things Football (soccer) related

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Rats.....[:@]

At least Källström scored his penalty. [:)]

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Orm

It takes skill to make star players play disciplined defensive football.

Also remember that Chelsea had spend a lot of money before Mourinho but they got no titles. But with Mourinho they won titles.

Well, as in most activities in life, I am pretty certain that destroying (Mourinho's philosophy) is much easier than creating. You reward those who create something.

And didn't the Russian oligarch (and his badly needed millions) appeared in 2003, just one year before Mourinho landed there? [;)]

Let's do some maths though.

Last three years. First of all he is the "best coach of the world". Therefore he has to aim at the serious stuff (no Carling Cups thingies, please).

That makes Leagues (the most regular team is rewarded) and Champions leagues. 2 (titles) x 3 (years) = 6 titles that might be grabbed...

He grabbed how many? Only ONE. 1/6 then. I would not call that impressive (I mean, *sarcasm on* isn't he the best out there?). Now imagine he won't be winning this year either.

That means he will have grabbed only 1/8 titles in 4 years!

Oh yes, he guarantees results... [:-] Soon the alarm device will be triggered. And be sure of this: I will be there, throwing popcorn from the cheap seats.

[warspite1]

So to prove what a rubbish manager he is you are:

A) Dicarding completely the titles he won with Porto, Chelsea and Inter Milan (including six league titles and two Champions Leagues)

B) Only taking the last three years - oh but not including Cups (you do realise they are major trophys right?) - oh and just for good measure deciding arbitarily now that he wont win anything this season to make his record "worse".

Right.......that's not maths - that's just ridiculous.

I can prove for a fact that Napoleon was the worst military leader ever. If I ignore every battle except the Waterloo Campaign (I am not allowing Ligny) then he has a 0% win record.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So to prove what a rubbish manager he is you are:

A) Dicarding completely the titles he won with Porto, Chelsea and Inter Milan (including six league titles and two Champions Leagues)

B) Only taking the last three years - oh but not including Cups (you do realise they are major trophys right?) - oh and just for good measure deciding arbitarily now that he wont win anything this season to make his record "worse".

Right.......that's not maths - that's just ridiculous.

I can prove for a fact that Napoleon was the worst military leader ever. If I ignore every battle except the Waterloo Campaign (I am not allowing Ligny) then he has a 0% win record.

Nope, it's cold numbers. It's what he's done on his last 3 years. Just hope he wins something this year or... 1/8! Weren't you saying he delivers results?

And whatever you say, League & Champions League are the serious stuff, the prize grabbed by the Top Teams, the elite. Small teams win the minor cup thingies quite often [;)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So to prove what a rubbish manager he is you are:

A) Dicarding completely the titles he won with Porto, Chelsea and Inter Milan (including six league titles and two Champions Leagues)

B) Only taking the last three years - oh but not including Cups (you do realise they are major trophys right?) - oh and just for good measure deciding arbitarily now that he wont win anything this season to make his record "worse".

Right.......that's not maths - that's just ridiculous.

I can prove for a fact that Napoleon was the worst military leader ever. If I ignore every battle except the Waterloo Campaign (I am not allowing Ligny) then he has a 0% win record.

Nope, it's cold numbers. It's what he's done on his last 3 years. Just hope he wins something this year or... 1/8! Weren't you saying he delivers results?

And whatever you say, League & Champions League are the serious stuff, the prize grabbed by the Top Teams, the elite. Small teams win the minor cup thingies quite often [;)]

Warspite1

Yes, that's right league titles and Champions league wins count - er unless you are Jose Mourinho apparently, in which case 6 league championships ans 2 Champions leagues must be ignored like they never happened [:D]

[warspite1]

Besides which, yes I did say he delivers results, he is a great coach, but that does not mean he cannot have "lean" spells. What now? Ferguson, Ancelotti, Mancini, Van Gaal etc they all won titles or Champions leagues every year?

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Besides which, yes I did say he delivers results, he is a great coach, but that does not mean he cannot have "lean" spells. What now? Ferguson, Ancelotti, Mancini, Van Gaal etc they all won titles or Champions leagues every year?

The End is Near, believe me. Resistance is futile

How can you not understand it? He plays ugly football (anti-football) despite he's got everything he wants. He trolls everyone. He insults his own colleagues, his players (when they do not win aka they dare sully his CV! [:@]). He's said he would only coach ELITE teams!

I have mentioned the negative traits. These are cold facts.

He's only got an asset to defend his case... he delivers... oops, wrong answer! Three years not delivering (hopefully four)! Can't you see that he is in a dangerous position?!

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Besides which, yes I did say he delivers results, he is a great coach, but that does not mean he cannot have "lean" spells. What now? Ferguson, Ancelotti, Mancini, Van Gaal etc they all won titles or Champions leagues every year?

The End is Near, believe me. Resistance is futile

How can you not understand it? He plays ugly football (anti-football) despite he's got everything he wants. He trolls everyone. He insults his own colleagues, his players (when they do not win aka they dare sully his CV! [:@]). He's said he would only coach ELITE teams!

I have mentioned the negative traits. These are cold facts.

He's only got an asset to defend his case... he delivers... oops, wrong answer! Three years not delivering (hopefully four)! Can't you see that he is in a dangerous position?!

warspite1

Three years not delivering? Oh this gets better. So now, in addition, to arbitrarily not allowing any trophies won in his Porto, Chelsea and Inter Milan days, you refuse to allow La Liga......(in addition of course to not allowing any other major trophies).

Wow, guess you must be right, if you take away every trophy he's ever won, then Mourinho has never won anything......[X(]

Thank-you for helping me see things in a new light. If I discount every trophy ever won by Manchester United, Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal, Newcastle, Chelsea, Manchester City, Wolverhampton Wanderers, Aston Villa and Sunderland, I reckon Spurs are the most successful team in English football! Hurrah!!!!

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Besides which, yes I did say he delivers results, he is a great coach, but that does not mean he cannot have "lean" spells. What now? Ferguson, Ancelotti, Mancini, Van Gaal etc they all won titles or Champions leagues every year?

The End is Near, believe me. Resistance is futile

How can you not understand it? He plays ugly football (anti-football) despite he's got everything he wants. He trolls everyone. He insults his own colleagues, his players (when they do not win aka they dare sully his CV! [:@]). He's said he would only coach ELITE teams!

I have mentioned the negative traits. These are cold facts

He's only got an asset to defend his case... he delivers... oops, wrong answer! Three years not delivering (hopefully four)! Can't you see that he is in a dangerous position?!

warspite1


Why is it unusual, and why does it make you angry that he only wants to coach "elite" teams? As I said previously, managers only tend to go "downwards" in job status if they muck up and have to repair their reputation.

Or are you suggesting that after Barcelona and Bayern that Guardiola's next job is at Wigan Athletic?

[Orm]

You make it sound that the team that Mourinho manages has the best team and players in the world and that winning titles should be expected with a good manager but with Mourinho the team underperforms. Is that your intention?

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Why is it unusual, and why does it make you angry that he only wants to coach "elite" teams?

When Mourinho took over at Real Madrid, the sacked coach (Pellegrini) went to Malaga (in La Liga) IIRC. And once again this mean personage could not stop saying something... "if I were to be sacked I would never go to Malaga". Which was a vile insult thrown to a fallen colleague (Pellegrini). Ever heard about Karma? Pelligrini in charge of Manchester City. And he might win the league...

This comment clearly proves Mourinho would not train NON elite teams aka QED. Guardiola on the other hand, never said he would not train Wigan. It's called respect.

And you keep talking about what he won. I am not talking, interested about that. I perfectly know how he did that: millions and then cheap anti-football (he is not impressing me: a guy who uses a Rolls Royce as a cart is not what I consider a genius, great coach). I am more interested in the recent past and future... He is not delivering. And delivering is his very oxygen because everything else is *N E G A T I V E*

In fact you said it: he is the perfect business-oriented coach. I totally agree... Now add to the equation that he has not delivered on these last three years. Really, just one league in a team like Real Madrid (mega rich -the richest RM in history LOL- and with really good players) is a joke. Those who run this circus know this, be sure of this.

ORIGINAL: Orm
You make it sound that the team that Mourinho manages has the best team and players in the world and that winning titles should be expected with a good manager but with Mourinho the team underperforms. Is that your intention?

It's Mourinho and everyone else. I am surprised you're still not convinced that having great players is most of the job. To me it's clear. Winning is never guaranteed but the job is much easier (or almost impossible if you lack these players).

It's not what he's done, it's how he's done it. I would think Mourinho is amazing IF he was doing these things with teams of the middle of the table: average and poor players that is (NO money then). Then I would perfectly understand why he is parking the bus (to survive). I would even want him to be promoted to an elite team. BUT I would not expect him to keep playing as if he was in charge of his old mediocre team (anti-football, parking the bus etc.)!

[warspite1]

And you keep talking about what he's like as a person.... Yes we are both agreed he is unlikeable as a person and in some of the things he does (although in that he is hardly alone amongst successful managers).

Mourinho is a football manager, he is judged on his results. If you are not interested in what he has won then that is fine, that's up to you - but the rest of the football world will look at what he's done, and recognise it for what its truly worth - and not simply decide to ignore it and airbrush out of history because it doesn't suit a certain argument. You can say as many times as you like, that only the last three years count, but that does not make it true - Mourinho has SEVEN league championships and TWO Champions Leagues. Try as you might, you cannot make them go away.

[TulliusDetritus]

We're clearly on the antipodes [:)]

Results are not everything. Mythical Brazil of the 50s, 60s is everything. Or Holland in the 70s. Or the German Football Ruthless Machine. Hell, I even came to appreciate the Italian catenaccio.

In the end it's funny... we remember those who CREATED, not those who destroyed. And this despite catenaccio is destruction. But after all Italians invented it (therefeore they were creating -a tool of destruction [:D]).

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

We're clearly on the antipodes [:)]

Results are not everything. Mythical Brazil of the 50s, 60s is everything. Or Holland in the 70s. Or the German Football Ruthless Machine. Hell, I even came to appreciate the Italian catenaccio.

In the end it's funny... we remember those who CREATED, not those who destroyed. And this despite catenaccio is destruction. But after all Italians invented it (therefeore they were creating -a tool of destruction [:D]).

warspite1

And that is the comment that sums up the main contradiction inherent in your posts. You do not like Mourinho's style of football - its functional, park the bus etc etc. But you lavish praise on the "German Football Ruthless Machine". No place for the Mighty Magyars - who happened to lose to those functional Germans in the 1954 final [&:].

[TulliusDetritus]

They parked (Germans or anyone else) the bus in 1954? Are you sure? [;)]

In Football there's an evolution. Pre WW2 it was crazy, a dream made true: 5, 6 attackers, "defence? Who cares about defence!". After WW2 until Mexico 86 teams kept attacking (and attacking means creation, imagination, TALENT!). Then the Italians in Spain 82 appeared with a first version of catenaccio, defeating the most magnificent team I have EVER seen in my entire life: Brazil -Socrates, Zico & Co.

In Mexico 86 something *happens*

Brazil is not Brazil anymore. The same can be said about all the other teams (except Holland). Strong midfields, defences... they don't attack like crazy anymore.

It's the struggle between the Light vs Darkness. I am on the side of the Light (attack, talent, creation, imagination). Now choose your side.

Amen [8D]

P.S.: needless to say Mourinho is Darth Vader reincarnate [:D]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

They parked (Germans or anyone else) the bus in 1954? Are you sure? [;)]

In Football there's an evolution. Pre WW2 it was crazy, a dream made true: 5, 6 attackers, "defence? Who cares about defence!". After WW2 until Mexico 86 teams kept attacking (and attacking means creation, imagination, TALENT!). Then the Italians in Spain 82 appeared with a first version of catenaccio, defeating the most magnificent team I have EVER seen in my entire life: Brazil -Socrates, Zico & Co.

In Mexico 86 something *happens*

Brazil is not Brazil anymore. The same can be said about all the other teams (except Holland). Strong midfields, defences... they don't attack like crazy anymore.

It's the struggle between the Light vs Darkness. I am on the side of the Light (attack, talent, creation, imagination). Now choose your side.

Amen [8D]

P.S.: needless to say Mourinho is Darth Vader reincarnate [:D]

warspite1

Hungary 54, Holland 74, Holland 78, Brazil 82. There is a consistent theme there isn't there.....[;)]

[TulliusDetritus]

warspite1

Hungary 54, Holland 74, Holland 78, Brazil 82. There is a consistent theme there isn't there.....[;)]

Yes, there's a pattern here: no one (victors and defeated) parked the bus, that's the whole point. Except perhaps Italy in 82. Not entirely true though. Rossi (their striker) was not ordered to pull back and play as a wing-back (as some guy from Cameroun) [;)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

warspite1

Hungary 54, Holland 74, Holland 78, Brazil 82. There is a consistent theme there isn't there.....[;)]

Yes, there's a pattern here: no one (victors and defeated) parked the bus, that's the whole point. Except perhaps Italy in 82. Not entirely true though. Rossi (their striker) was not ordered to pull back and play as a wing-back (as some guy from Cameroun) [;)]

warspite1

Nope...guess again.

[Orm]

I am convinced that having great players is very important. But I am also convinced that it takes skill to make stars perform on the field as you want them to perform. Even more so if you have divas in the team.

Spain national team, for example, almost always have had a lot of stars that more or less constantly underperformed in the World Cup. Once they got their gear together they begun to win more.

I am not saying that Mourinho had a superb record in Madrid but he performed better than you give him credit for. I think that Madrid underperformed before he took over. And making it to the semi-finals in the **** Champions League is not a disaster. Many actually consider this a good result. Especially when considering Madrid's track record in the Champions League before Mourinho.

What I am trying to say is that the teams that he manages, while good, are not so outstanding that they can be expected to win the Champions League and their national league every year. In my humble opinion there are teams out there with better players than most of the teams that he has managed.

Furthermore, I think, that since his services seem to be well paid and in demand he must have some skill in what he is doing. Even if part of that skill is to make stars and football divas to play defensive football.

Also note that I am not that fond of him and how he acts. But that can be said about many people in football.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Orm
What I am trying to say is that the teams that he manages, while good, are not so outstanding that they can be expected to win the Champions League and their national league every year. In my humble opinion there are teams out there with better players than most of the teams that he has managed.

100% Agreed [:)] He IS very effective (not the last three years though, let's hope that will be the pattern), no one will dispute that. As I see it, he could perfectly win the Champions League. With anti-football, parking the bus tactics though. My money is on Bayern but who knows.

As regards Spain, I disagree. Tbey never had a Golden Generation (and I mean a lot of world-class players). They could have lost the same (as Holland) but they managed to put these great players to good use. Just for the record, I think that cycle is over. Again, having these exceptional players is most of the job.