new counters

[fran52]

StrumTiger needs square blue box with 8 in it. (thats right a 8...its a 210mm shell..wow)

Are you sure?210mm seem the gun of a ship.This counter don't exist in ASL:

[jonj01]

ORIGINAL: acropora

StrumTiger needs square blue box with 8 in it. (thats right a 8...its a 210mm shell..wow)

Are you sure?210mm seem the gun of a ship.This counter don't exist in ASL:

you are right acropora...I WAS TOTALLY WRONG...
the size of the shell was 380mm... wow...I was almost 50% too SMALL.
The official German designation was Sturmmörserwagen 606/4 mit 38 cm RW 61.

THATS 38CM even too a metrically challenged american...thats 380mm ...it makes the katyusha rocket look small.

better make that a fire power of 9 or 10..if it hits it levels the building.

I'll check the weight of the shell..see if it has the same firepower as a stuka bomb..

[jonj01]

Yep, similar the size of the rocket is 480 kg..similar to the Stuka 500 kg bomb..
I guess an 8 firepower would be sufficient.

[maitrebongo]

ORIGINAL: jonj01

missed a couple things in my haste...sorry to have you keep fixing this stuff.

Don't worry, that's nothing [:)]. It's very easy and quick for me to modify values. All my units are separate files and Numbers are in different layers. It take me few seconds to correct a counter... I will correct these countersheet but not this evening (tomorrow i think).

--> Acropora,

Your countersheet are very well except for the Pz35 (a little crappy) and for the adaptation (alignement). If you could re-align them it would be better. If you don't want, i can make (but you have to give me your original tank graphic files (because you make reservation for the turret on them...)).

[HobbesACW]

I assume a Sturmtiger should be a one shot weapon for the duration of HoS scenarios?
Would it not be susceptible to small arms fire with that huge aperture gun and a 380mm shell lodged down it?

[fran52]

--> Acropora,

Your countersheet are very well except for the Pz35 (a little crappy) and for the adaptation (alignement). If you could re-align them it would be better. If you don't want, i can make (but you have to give me your original tank graphic files (because you make reservation for the turret on them...)).

The Pz 35 is your with colour changed because was unusual the camouflage in 1941.If you want i can post the psd files.Is strange that are not aligned because i use the grid.
Sorry there is an error in the russian table.The 122L is named 100L and vice versa.

[fran52]

Until now i'm here with the Russian

[fran52]

The second.Then i have ready the t26 seriees,t34 flame.I must do the T40.
Jonj probably is better to increase the value in the square to 5 for the flam PZ3.
What do you think?
I have used the same value for the T35 because have 2gun ,one 45mm and one 76mm.
please check for any error.

[jonj01]

ORIGINAL: hobbes

I assume a Sturmtiger should be a one shot weapon for the duration of HoS scenarios?
Would it not be susceptible to small arms fire with that huge aperture gun and a 380mm shell lodged down it?

It was a rocket. Not a shell.
I don't know how long to reload, some say 5 minutes. Don't know how to module that in the game? Not a one shot weapon...but not the one shot each round either. Maybe leave that one out of the next counter pack.

[jonj01]

Acropora,
A couple of things about your values.

MOVEMENT
The bt-5 moved at 72km/hr and
the bt-7 moved at 86 km/hr
Even ASL has there movement as 22 and 23 respectively.

i think bt-5 should be nearly as fast as the german armored car 234 (at 20) so 18T
the bt-7 20T
bt-5 18T

although the t28 is slower than the t34(11T) its not that much slower
we have t34 game defined movement at 11T 50km/hr
t-28 at 38km/hr
t-35 at 30km/hr
Sig33 game defined movement at 6T 20 km/hr

So t-28 should be about 9T
t-35 should be about 7T


MACHINE GUNS
T-28 had 4-5 machine guns so we just use a value of 4 and 2R for its MGs
T-35 had 5-6 machine guns so we just use a value of 6 and 2R for its MGs

TO HIT CHARTS.
T-35, BT5, BT7,T-26 all had the same gun the 45mm so t35 should use the same hit table as those.

t-35 had a second gun..but the game doesn't know how to do TWO DIFFERENT HIT TABLES FOR ONE TANK. So we can module the t-35 with a higher INF firepower value exactly like you have making it 4 instead of just 3. And use the 45mm hit table.

75short gun to hit table. The game has an example(PzIVf1)..I do not agree that the armor piercing rounds of the 75mm short gun have the same hit and pen values as a 20mm cannon. (This is how the game has it). We cannot change anything in the regular game..as there are multiplayer games that require the "Stalingrad" folder to remain untouched by us modders.

we can either use this table for all 75 short guns or make a new one and apply it to all new tanks with 75mm short gun (t-28 and bt-7A)and all the new german ones we make.



This way it is better than the 20mm gun and not as good as the 45mm gun.



thanks for your values for both russian and german tanks acropora.

[fran52]

ORIGINAL: jonj01

Acropora,
A couple of things about your values.

MOVEMENT
The bt-5 moved at 72km/hr and
the bt-7 moved at 86 km/hr
Even ASL has there movement as 22 and 23 respectively.

i think bt-5 should be nearly as fast as the german armored car 234 (at 20) so 18T
the bt-7 20T
bt-5 18T

although the t28 is slower than the t34(11T) its not that much slower
we have t34 game defined movement at 11T 50km/hr
t-28 at 38km/hr
t-35 at 30km/hr
Sig33 game defined movement at 6T 20 km/hr

So t-28 should be about 9T
t-35 should be about 7T


MACHINE GUNS
T-28 had 4-5 machine guns so we just use a value of 4 and 2R for its MGs
T-35 had 5-6 machine guns so we just use a value of 6 and 2R for its MGs

TO HIT CHARTS.
T-35, BT5, BT7,T-26 all had the same gun the 45mm so t35 should use the same hit table as those.

t-35 had a second gun..but the game doesn't know how to do TWO DIFFERENT HIT TABLES FOR ONE TANK. So we can module the t-35 with a higher INF firepower value exactly like you have making it 4 instead of just 3. And use the 45mm hit table.

75short gun to hit table. The game has an example(PzIVf1)..I do not agree that the armor piercing rounds of the 75mm short gun have the same hit and pen values as a 20mm cannon. (This is how the game has it). We cannot change anything in the regular game..as there are multiplayer games that require the "Stalingrad" folder to remain untouched by us modders.

we can either use this table for all 75 short guns or make a new one and apply it to all new tanks with 75mm short gun (t-28 and bt-7A)and all the new german ones we make.



This way it is better than the 20mm gun and not as good as the 45mm gun.



thanks for your values for both russian and german tanks acropora.

I must check but about the movement of Bt5-7 and T28.The 234 have 30 in ASL,so a comparison give about half this value.
The to kill table of T35 and BT7 is for a 75* gun.I have not checked if the 75 gun of the T35 is in turret or not.Anyway if we follow,more or less,the ASL to kill table,the Russian gun have different value compared with the same size but German(quality of the optics?)
This evening or tomorrow I check again the value.

[fran52]

After a check on the to kill I would propose this:
20L 2-1-0
R20LL /25LL 2-1-1
37 3-2-1
37L 76* 4-2-1
45L 75* 4-3-1
47LL 50 4-3-2
R76L 50L 5-4-3
75 105 5-4-2
75L 85L 152* 6-4-3
75LL 7-5-4
122L 8-6-4
88LL 100L 8-7-6

Follow the to kill of ASL to find the type of the gun.I don't know if this table is in accordance with some counters in the original game.Probably no,then ,if all agree,we must decide what to do.Which means ,is better to change also the original value to have the Eastern front mod?
Where there is an R is for Russian.Anyway,more or less,this are all the size for the Russian front.
Than we must check also the to hit for any nation.
After this we must do rules for the MG and the armour.

[jonj01]

I probably shouldn't have brought it up...about the 75 short gun. And I do not want to re-invent the wheel here.

We cannot change the values in the original game. That is an absolute given.
We cannot change the values in the original game. That is an absolute given.
Multiplayer games balance depend on the original values.
Many people who buy this game...play the original board game...and expect the values to be somewhat consistent with the original board game.

The Machine guns, we stick with original game system...one MG = 2 firepower.....two MG = 4 firepower

The armor is fine on the counters we have.

Acropora...you said that the 75*(short) and 45L were the same penetration values. So we will use your numbers for all 75(short) guns. We will keep the same to hit numbers.

Your numbers for movement, armor, and to hit charts are very similar to mine. I have made many changes to include your numbers.

We have a good set of counters. I don't want to debate this forever. This thread is already almost 150 posts long.

I will post the unit.cvs....so Maitrebongo can finish the sheets.

Then I will submit the new Counterpack on the forum.

If you see any big errors in the counterpack let me know..I will change it then.


Thank you so much for all your help.

[HobbesACW]

I think they had a crane on the back of the thing to reload so 5 minutes would be optimal I assume if out of LoS. ASL would probably have a page of rules about one tank?
Was it not a gas assisted shell?

Cheers,
Chris

[fran52]

OK Jonj,was only a scruple.if we must do a mod is better to think now rather to change after.
Anyway I finish the Russian regular counters and then i post the bitmap with the turret separated.OK?

[jonj01]

Matirebongo,

Here are the final versions of the cvs files.
As before you can get the firepower, movement, MG, armor and to hit tables from the xls. file

Thank you

[jonj01]

Acropora,

Here's the flame tanks you kept talking about. Their values are in the cvs above.
Russians replaced MG with flamethrower.
Germans replaced main gun with flamethrower.
I made the changes necessary...the OT34 and OT42 russian still have a 75 short gun..but have more powerful but shorter range Machine guns(the flamethrower).

The german tanks have a Machine gun..but the main gun is a flamethrower...I set the to hit charts really high ..so a hit at 1 hex was automatic, 2-3 hexes harder.

Couldn't get the video of the flamethrower to work...just the sound..

Anyway here they are..they have dynamic numbers..the game will put them in when they are in a scenario.



Acropora...what we need is turrets...we do not need anymore counters.
Send me turrets for any of the lists of turrets I posted on this thread...that would be great...turrets.

Thanks

[fran52]

Perfect! I post the bitmap of the Russian already done then you use what you want.
Again the flame are without to kill table.To do the guard version is not so difficult if the value remain the same.Is enough to change the base color.
Are you sure that a flametrower can have arange of 3 ex?Is not only 2?

[fran52]

The Turret

[jonj01]

ORIGINAL: acropora

Perfect! I post the bitmap of the Russian already done then you use what you want.
Again the flame are without to kill table.To do the guard version is not so difficult if the value remain the same.Is enough to change the base color.
Are you sure that a flametrower can have arange of 3 ex?Is not only 2?

According to wikipedia..the flame tanks had a longer range than the regular flame thrower(could use bigger and thicker cylinders of compressed gas) up to 140m..thats 3 hexes.