Questions to the carrier warriors here,
Date: September 1983.
1) What would be the aircraft make-up be for CV-69 and CV-62? The earliest F/A-18 is 1984.
2) How close do you think a large US carrier strike force like this would have to get to Reykjavik Iceland to destroy the airbase and surrounding smaller air fields?
any help would be appreciated.
Carrier Striking Distance and make-up
Moderator: MOD_Command
RE: Carrier Striking Distance
That is wonderful info and I found CV-62 so i can work with this. Any idea on the number of each aircraft types? I would think it is the number of aircraft per squadron.
CV-62 INDEPENDENCE
Oct.18, 1983 - Apr.11, 1984 (Med, Grenada)
Modex
Squadron Aircraft
100 VF-14 Top Hatters F-14A
200 VF-32 Swordsmen F-14A
300 VA-15 Valions A-7E
400 VA-87 Golden Warriors A-7E
500 VA-176 Thunderbolts A-6E/KA-6D
600-603 VAW-122 Steeljaws E-2C
604-607 VAQ-131 Lancers EA-6B
610 HS-15 Red Lions SH-3H
700 VS-28 Hukkers S-3A
CV-62 INDEPENDENCE
Oct.18, 1983 - Apr.11, 1984 (Med, Grenada)
Modex
Squadron Aircraft
100 VF-14 Top Hatters F-14A
200 VF-32 Swordsmen F-14A
300 VA-15 Valions A-7E
400 VA-87 Golden Warriors A-7E
500 VA-176 Thunderbolts A-6E/KA-6D
600-603 VAW-122 Steeljaws E-2C
604-607 VAQ-131 Lancers EA-6B
610 HS-15 Red Lions SH-3H
700 VS-28 Hukkers S-3A
RE: Carrier Striking Distance
Awesome site, I use a lot of carriers in my sandbox so this will be used often, thankyou!!!
When in Doubt, Charlie out!!
RE: Carrier Striking Distance
For the 1980's, typical squadron strength was as follows:
VF: 12xF-14A
VA: 12xA-7 or 10xA-6
VS: 10xS-3
VAW: 4xE-2C
VAQ: 4xEA-6B
HS: 6xSH-3A
VF: 12xF-14A
VA: 12xA-7 or 10xA-6
VS: 10xS-3
VAW: 4xE-2C
VAQ: 4xEA-6B
HS: 6xSH-3A
RE: Carrier Striking Distance
Very nice site, all in one location instead of bouncing all over the place. Thanks.
For #2: It depends on how much threat there is to the CVBG I think. If the threat is limited you might steam as close as 150-200 NM or even a tad closer, however if there was a high threat of Long Range (Bear/Backfire) or Sub attack you could use your tankers and take more time to strike from 500NM or so - much more difficult to mass and coordinate though. If you support with land based tankers (not sure when the KC-135's got the Drogue pods, but I think it was the early 80's) the operation from a long distance is much more do'able - theoretically from any range really, but practically I would think 500 NM would be about the longest you want to play with.
If on the other hand there is a high Air to Air threat and the threat to the ships is manageable, you would want to close the gap to let your VF squadrons cycle faster.
If your in the Med your close to everything and don't have much choice, but in the North Atlantic you have some decent play space
Just my thoughts, never stepped foot on an aircraft carrier before so am not an expert.
B
For #2: It depends on how much threat there is to the CVBG I think. If the threat is limited you might steam as close as 150-200 NM or even a tad closer, however if there was a high threat of Long Range (Bear/Backfire) or Sub attack you could use your tankers and take more time to strike from 500NM or so - much more difficult to mass and coordinate though. If you support with land based tankers (not sure when the KC-135's got the Drogue pods, but I think it was the early 80's) the operation from a long distance is much more do'able - theoretically from any range really, but practically I would think 500 NM would be about the longest you want to play with.
If on the other hand there is a high Air to Air threat and the threat to the ships is manageable, you would want to close the gap to let your VF squadrons cycle faster.
If your in the Med your close to everything and don't have much choice, but in the North Atlantic you have some decent play space
Just my thoughts, never stepped foot on an aircraft carrier before so am not an expert.
B
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RE: Carrier Striking Distance
What other ships would a CSG consist of in 1980s?
RE: Carrier Striking Distance
That is a good question as well.
Because i put 2 carriers in the same grouping I add 4-FFG (2 as picket), 2-DD, 1-DDG, 2-CG. I am open to suggestions. I know that carriers are not grouped together to often but it is one mission.
Because i put 2 carriers in the same grouping I add 4-FFG (2 as picket), 2-DD, 1-DDG, 2-CG. I am open to suggestions. I know that carriers are not grouped together to often but it is one mission.
RE: Carrier Striking Distance
I was also curious as to what ships would make up a CVBG. Also, I know the smaller CV's (Midway Class) operated into the late 80s/early 90s and they operated F-4's in their VF's until the F/A-18 came online, would their CVBG makeup be different then the larger CVNs? As in the type/number of escorts.
Want to put together a scenario using the second line carriers during a WWIII type setting, so want to be as accurate with OOB as possible.
Want to put together a scenario using the second line carriers during a WWIII type setting, so want to be as accurate with OOB as possible.
When in Doubt, Charlie out!!
RE: Carrier Striking Distance
A CSG today would have: http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ships/carr ... e/cvbg.asp : 1 x CG, 2 x DDG, 1 x SSN and an AOR.
Cold War CVBG's were much larger, I'll look for a ref but I believe it would be: 2-3 CG(CGN), 4 x DD/DDG/FFG preferably at least 2 Spruance/Kidd, 2 x SSN and an AOR
Multiple CVBGs would work together but would rarely be grouped together in one group. They would cruise apart but within 100NM for mutual support.
B
Cold War CVBG's were much larger, I'll look for a ref but I believe it would be: 2-3 CG(CGN), 4 x DD/DDG/FFG preferably at least 2 Spruance/Kidd, 2 x SSN and an AOR
Multiple CVBGs would work together but would rarely be grouped together in one group. They would cruise apart but within 100NM for mutual support.
B
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RE: Carrier Striking Distance
This site outlines the late CW CVBG as:
http://www.brighthubengineering.com/mar ... dern-navy/
The Carrier Battle Group in the Late Cold War to the Present
By the 1980's, aircraft carrier battle groups all had at their core one aircraft carrier, which was guarded by at least one or two cruisers or large destroyers which had as their primary role anti-aircraft defense. Three or four additional escorts in the form of frigates and destroyers provided an anti-submarine screen. In addition, a carrier battle group was generally accompanied by one or two attack submarines to aid in defending against enemy subs.
Carrier Battle Groups
How many ships are in a aircraft carrier battle group depends on the mission of the group and the expected threat. In the example of a Cold War carrier battle group off Russia, the CVBG (shorthand for aircraft carrier battle group) had to expect an attack by upwards of a hundred land based bombers each carrying multiple cruise missiles plus dozens of Russian submarines and surface vessels similarly armed. In such circumstances it was expected that up to four CVBG formations would be grouped together, and each would incorporate two or three cruisers and half a dozen destroyers for maximum protection.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This one quantifies it differently but the result is similar: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... sition.htm
The Standard CVBG Composition is defined in terms of required capabilities and therefore provide the basis from which to derive required force structure. A "standard" CVBG is deemed to provide the capabilities required to accomplish all tasks in a notional threat environment against a notional threat, thereby the means to provide an initial crisis response mission from a rotationally deployed forward posture.
A standard CVBG is defined as:
◾One CV/CVN
◾One Carrier Air Wing
◾Six Surface Combatants comprising at least:
◾three Aegis CG/DDG
◾four VLS-Tomahawk ships
◾ten Lamps
◾Two SSN (1 VLS)
◾One Multi-purpose AOE
http://www.brighthubengineering.com/mar ... dern-navy/
The Carrier Battle Group in the Late Cold War to the Present
By the 1980's, aircraft carrier battle groups all had at their core one aircraft carrier, which was guarded by at least one or two cruisers or large destroyers which had as their primary role anti-aircraft defense. Three or four additional escorts in the form of frigates and destroyers provided an anti-submarine screen. In addition, a carrier battle group was generally accompanied by one or two attack submarines to aid in defending against enemy subs.
Carrier Battle Groups
How many ships are in a aircraft carrier battle group depends on the mission of the group and the expected threat. In the example of a Cold War carrier battle group off Russia, the CVBG (shorthand for aircraft carrier battle group) had to expect an attack by upwards of a hundred land based bombers each carrying multiple cruise missiles plus dozens of Russian submarines and surface vessels similarly armed. In such circumstances it was expected that up to four CVBG formations would be grouped together, and each would incorporate two or three cruisers and half a dozen destroyers for maximum protection.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This one quantifies it differently but the result is similar: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... sition.htm
The Standard CVBG Composition is defined in terms of required capabilities and therefore provide the basis from which to derive required force structure. A "standard" CVBG is deemed to provide the capabilities required to accomplish all tasks in a notional threat environment against a notional threat, thereby the means to provide an initial crisis response mission from a rotationally deployed forward posture.
A standard CVBG is defined as:
◾One CV/CVN
◾One Carrier Air Wing
◾Six Surface Combatants comprising at least:
◾three Aegis CG/DDG
◾four VLS-Tomahawk ships
◾ten Lamps
◾Two SSN (1 VLS)
◾One Multi-purpose AOE
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RE: Carrier Striking Distance
Thanks gunner. Well maybe I should explain what I am trying to do. I am creating a group of scenarios around one NATO SSN USS Baltimore. Scenario 1 was USS Baltimore SC1 - Typhoon He'll 1983 released in the community pack where your sub follows a Victor III and war with The Warsaw Pact starts. Scenario 2 is posted here USS Baltimore CS2 - Two Birds One Stone 1983 (just finishing touches), where USS Baltimore must kill as many subs as possible that are crossing the Norwegian Sea and also attack a convoy. SC1 and 2 are linked in the story line.
Scenario 1. Learn layers, sensors, following a Victor to learn its habits, and how to conduct a search.
Scenario 2. Sprint and drift, types of subs, how to use harpoons for a convoy attack, evasion.
Scenario 3. Sprint and drift in support mode, detecting and letting aircraft assist. Player controls only Baltimore (being discussed here)
During all this the Soviets expand from Kola where they take Iceland and northern Norway and beat NATO out of the North Atlantic ( something like red storm rising). This all happens in a course of let's say 10 - 15 days.
After scenario 2, USS Baltimore is in southern England getting resupplied. In scenario 3, I wan't the player to support a carrier group going north and doing 18kts to take back Iceland. The player would have to master the sprint and drifts technique to stay in front of the group and to locate SSGs, SSGNs, SSNs and surface ships before they can hit the CVBG. USS Baltimore can kill them or let the v-3 or helos do it. I want the player to drift until he/she picks up the lead ship in the convoy in its convergence zone and then do a sprint half the distance of the convergence zone and wait again.
I think the carrier group has to be active and with missions. If the base is damaged and little damage is to carrier group, then the player gets a good score. So the makeup of the CVGB is just as important as the air wing. Now that we had this conversation, do The soviets need aircraft on the island. Baltimore would have little if Any control on damage to the group from there so it all has to be from the sea were Baltimore can find it before they find the group. Right now i have multiple SSGNs, SSGs, Afew SSNs a surface group and a Udaloy. I am still putting it together.
Now that I shared this with you, any suggestions would be appreciated.
Scenario 1. Learn layers, sensors, following a Victor to learn its habits, and how to conduct a search.
Scenario 2. Sprint and drift, types of subs, how to use harpoons for a convoy attack, evasion.
Scenario 3. Sprint and drift in support mode, detecting and letting aircraft assist. Player controls only Baltimore (being discussed here)
During all this the Soviets expand from Kola where they take Iceland and northern Norway and beat NATO out of the North Atlantic ( something like red storm rising). This all happens in a course of let's say 10 - 15 days.
After scenario 2, USS Baltimore is in southern England getting resupplied. In scenario 3, I wan't the player to support a carrier group going north and doing 18kts to take back Iceland. The player would have to master the sprint and drifts technique to stay in front of the group and to locate SSGs, SSGNs, SSNs and surface ships before they can hit the CVBG. USS Baltimore can kill them or let the v-3 or helos do it. I want the player to drift until he/she picks up the lead ship in the convoy in its convergence zone and then do a sprint half the distance of the convergence zone and wait again.
I think the carrier group has to be active and with missions. If the base is damaged and little damage is to carrier group, then the player gets a good score. So the makeup of the CVGB is just as important as the air wing. Now that we had this conversation, do The soviets need aircraft on the island. Baltimore would have little if Any control on damage to the group from there so it all has to be from the sea were Baltimore can find it before they find the group. Right now i have multiple SSGNs, SSGs, Afew SSNs a surface group and a Udaloy. I am still putting it together.
Now that I shared this with you, any suggestions would be appreciated.
RE: Carrier Striking Distance
Sounds interesting, I haven't played either but will give them a try. I think that if the Sov's have taken Iceland, they would turn it into an 'unsinkable aircraft carrier' as the first priority. Also one of their first priorities would be to put some ASW squadrons into action, probably 403rd OPLAP with Be-12 first because they are sea planes and I suspect most of the runways in Iceland would be damaged and at a premium. Also a flock of Ka-25's once they can get them there. Once things get fixed up I suspect that 24th OPLAP with Il-38 would also deploy, the Tu-142's would probably stay in Russia or Norway but support out this far - that's just a guess.
As far as Fixed wing Air from Iceland, if you want to work it so that the Sov's are just getting things up to speed, don't put any strike aircraft there yet, perhaps only AAW stuff to keep the carrier VF sqns busy and to protect the ASW assets. I would suggest a Regt of MiG 23 or 27 or a mix of them. No real threat to the CVBG. I think 88th IAP was with the Northern Fleet, or you could pick any Regt out of the VVS (Sov Frontal Aviation). Probably spread them out between Keflavik and Reykjavik, and maybe some of the smaller airports.
This way your main threat is from the sea and detectable by the Baltimore.
Just some thoughts.
BG
As far as Fixed wing Air from Iceland, if you want to work it so that the Sov's are just getting things up to speed, don't put any strike aircraft there yet, perhaps only AAW stuff to keep the carrier VF sqns busy and to protect the ASW assets. I would suggest a Regt of MiG 23 or 27 or a mix of them. No real threat to the CVBG. I think 88th IAP was with the Northern Fleet, or you could pick any Regt out of the VVS (Sov Frontal Aviation). Probably spread them out between Keflavik and Reykjavik, and maybe some of the smaller airports.
This way your main threat is from the sea and detectable by the Baltimore.
Just some thoughts.
BG
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RE: Carrier Striking Distance
I like it and you have a real grip on the air wings and I appreciate the help. ASW from the air should be a threat to Baltimore but I have to be careful on the detection of the group. I will let you how this goes. Thanks all.