Comprehensive WWII counter pack is DEAD

[hjc]

As a newcomer I'm not entirely familiar with the brief history of this game. But in a recent post, Tom Proudfoot responded to the extensive amount of modding going on -

Not too worried about that, each nation and time period has special rules. Just off the top of my head, Pacific has caves and banzai charges and jamming machine guns; Blitzkrieg has hit-and-run movement and cavalry; the modern stuff has helicopters and multiple ammo types for vehicles. Lots of things to add.

So from this we could assume that yes, different rule sets or alterations to rules come with new purchased games. However as far as modding those games goes, "have at it".

Modding the AI is something I would like too - at the moment I don't understand what's going on with the AI at times when it seems to just "pass" and lose the game - other times it goes for the jugular. AI routines are usually hard coded into a game and not so easy to modify.

The editor did seem a mystery to me for a couple hours but I'm familiar with the basics of it now thanks to reading Tom's guide and also jonj01's (thank you!) youtube demonstrations. The editor isn't worse than many I've encountered in other games. As pointed out earlier modders and scenario designers tend to be devoted enough to surmount difficulties like obscure editing tools. Even I have decided it's possible to experiment with making scenarios and I'm dusting off my rusty photoshop skills to try my hand at making a map. Although the superlative maps & counters already available here could be hard to live up to.

[usgrandprix]

FWIW, I think LnL is a good company and Matrix has made a wonderful reproduction. Sure it has a few bugs, but no more than to be expected. I report them in the spirit of feedback. They've fixed a few. I'm very satisfied. I also very much appreciate the modding we can do with the base game. It's a bit clunky for the user, but I think they have made some improvements and I hope there are a few more to come.

The modding you can do with the HoS game is very good. And I appreciate how they've embraced it. Still they can reserve a few game mechanics for expansion only (helos, other nationality characteristics such as Japanese infantry don't shake!?, amphib, new cards, the list goes on) and it will make for a cool upgrade. This game is at the top of my list and I think it will be there for a while.

Regarding the mods. I think if they could make it so the modder can name what folder path to use for files for that mod's scenarios that might help the user so they can add that folder and not have to do anything else. There are probably other solutions. I'll bet they are looking into it. I'll be patient.

[jonj01]

ORIGINAL: maitrebongo

Not summits no unfounded accusation to the creators or to the developers.
I think exactly that they are, at the moment very present, on the forum and very reactive on the solutions to the bugs which appeared since the launch of the game (Can be not rather fast for some of us[;)]).
In any case, they have never said that they dropped the community of modders.
I think exactly that "Lock'n Load Publishing" is a company really different from others by its particular spirit which seems not at all venal(mercantile).
I really appreciated the small presents that they made from time to time in players (scenarios, counters, surprises...). I think that kind of gesture (that spirit) is a security of sustainability and dynamism for the community.
And a satisfied community is a good thing to sell this particular kind of game. The community promotes this one on wargaming social networks, attracting more players towards this system. On the other hand, a disappointed community can destroy easily and inequitably a game which has nevertheless a lot of potential, it is sensitive [:(].
In my opinion, "Heroes of the Pacific" should be a DLC and not sold more expensive than a DTP game. To sell it as a full game would be a rough mistake.

You have a real diplomatic style Maitrebongo. I bet diplomacy is a required subject in the French public schools. It is a good thing.

When I started this thread...it really wasn't meant to bad mouth the developers. My intention was to simply state my idea(and it really wasn't a very thought out idea) to keep a comprehensive unit file for all the WWII counters cannot be done.

I like throwing in flair and a little bit of drama in stuff like this. Also I was disappointed. Some mistook the drama for substance.

This is a "forum". Any forum is to discuss opinions and ideas about a given subject.
It is also sometimes a means to vent frustrations on that subject. Some stuff was tossed at the developers (maybe unfounded and undeserved) but they are the developers. I assume they have thick skin.

No one here is saying this is a bad game. The time and effort we put forth on this game says the exact opposite.

Steel Panthers went through many revisions and upgrades despite the fact people had stopped paying for Steel Panthers. In fact this effort, made it marketable for a second time.

If Tom and Mark walked away at this moment (that is not going to happen..they are already talking of an expansion). This game would continue to improve.

[maitrebongo]

ORIGINAL: jonj01

You have a real diplomatic style Maitrebongo. I bet diplomacy is a required subject in the French public schools. It is a good thing.

Your point is quite right indeed, the diplomacy is a second nature with us (like love [;)]).

ORIGINAL: jonj01

Steel Panthers went through many revisions and upgrades despite the fact people had stopped paying for Steel Panthers.
If Tom and Mark walked away at this moment (that is not going to happen..they are already talking of an expansion). This game would continue to improve.

Exactly, "Steel Panthers" is a perfect example of what a good game can become in the hands of an active community, with or without its developers and creators.
If ever one got to this point, we would be inspired by this example to continue to make live this game.
As said in "Frankenstein": "The monster is alive and nobody can more stop it". [:)]

[hjc]

ORIGINAL: maitrebongo
Exactly, "Steel Panthers" is a perfect example of what a good game can become in the hands of an active community, with or without its developers and creators.

Agree about Steel Panthers. Coincidentally, Tom worked on Steel Panthers at one point too.

[z1812]

First I want to thank the developers for a very good game with excellent ongoing support.

Then of course the community of map makers, scenario creators, and modders. Great work indeed.

It seems to me that a balance could be made by the developers restricting what could be modded. So let's say that maps and scenarios are fully accessible but units would be restricted. As per the difficulties as explained above in arranging unit files, not counting special rule sets to accommodate different years and theatres, it would be clear to everyone what could be modded and what could not. This accommodates revenue stream for the company and saves modders from wasting their time on a project that is wonderful but practically unmanageable.

Alternately the developers, if so inclined, could include a system that allowed open modding but restricted it to a released title and a fixed time period. This would probably be the best approach to satisfy a revenue stream and modding at the same time.

A lot of this really depends on what "Lock n Load" wishes to achieve in the future. Perhaps they have not yet decided themselves.

Even though I am not thrilled about the Pacific Front I will definitely buy the game if it is made. As I wish to support future product development.

Who knows? Mark seems like an odd type of fellow. He seems to like the work modders are doing and I could imagine he may just as easily make the game open source with complete support for user additions. [;)]

[jonj01]

ORIGINAL: z1812



It seems to me that a balance could be made by the developers restricting what could be modded. So let's say that maps and scenarios are fully accessible but units would be restricted. As per the difficulties as explained above in arranging unit files, not counting special rule sets to accommodate different years and theatres, it would be clear to everyone what could be modded and what could not. This accommodates revenue stream for the company and saves modders from wasting their time on a project that is wonderful but practically unmanageable.

No one likes to waste time. But adjusting unit parameters..(range, firepower, movement,moral, etc) is one of the only few ways to get the AI to behave. The AI needs work, unless you want to play endless scenarios where the AI is in a static defensive position. Right now the AI has a very real problem deciding when to take a shot with an AT gun or Tank. It doesn't seem to understand that simply sitting there 12 hexes away and firing round after round where it needs snake eyes or better (there have been times when it fired when it was impossible to hit) to hit...is a waste of time. it has a real problem moving close or adjacent to blast the infantry unit in the woods or the building (yes, I fully understand that adjacent means close assault).

I have to totally disagree with you on that point z1812. We need more modding access...not less. The devs are busy...they are not making tons of cash off this game, I can assure you. In most game development, only a limited amount of time and budget is allocated for AI tweaking.

Give the burden of AI tweaking to the mods.

Although its been some time since I learned a computer language..how hard can tweaking the decision parameters on the AI be? The real work is taking the time to observe the outcome of that specific tweak. Then going back, changing the parameter back to what it was and tweaking another.

[maitrebongo]

ORIGINAL: z1812

This accommodates revenue stream for the company and saves modders from wasting their time on a project that is wonderful but practically unmanageable.

First of all, I would mean that the idea which you suggests looking a pension to developers by this method adorned me little honest.
What the customers have to pay, it is the really added value by the work of developers.
The idea to split the game in small fragments to sell then several times the same software with only a modifications of some graphic files and some Excel files seems to me in total contradiction with my conception of the good business and the just respect for the consumers. Furthermore it seems to me that it is in no way the direction which takes the market of the video games today.
If us, modders, we thought as you that it is enough to make easily some profit on the back of the gamers, we would sell our work (for example 1 dollar a new unit counters [8|]). Or worse, we would sell our whole work to a Chinese editor (it is just an example [;)]) little scrupulous and which laughs at the copyright which would produce a clone of the game to flood the market (That it is recently seen on a famous title).
But we are not like that.
We work voluntarily to try to increase the pleasure of game of all the community and without stealing the money of the creators and the developers.

Having said that, I do not consider to have wasted my time by producing something which would be uncontrolled in the game.
If one needs the community of modders will work alone to bring solutions of all the met problems.
I think sincerely that it is preferable and profitable for all to work in good spirit with developers and modders (alone we go quick, together we go far - think about that [;)]).

Things being what they are, and without going farther into a sterile debate, it is clear that the game have to be patched on two things not corresponding and for which it is sold : The scenario editor and the AI.

[z1812]

ORIGINAL: baloo7777
I love this game and have complete respect for you modders, who I feel are making a good game into a great one. That being said, I am in my mid 50's and not the most tech savvy guy. The use of these wonderful mods is rapidly getting out of my abilities. It is very frustrating, and I have to agree with jonj01's assessment. I hope this can be made easier in the not so distant future.

The quote above describes the problem. Mods add value and interest to the game but only if they are reasonably easy to access and use and if the developer supports that effort. I am speaking in general and not specifically about Lock n Load.

Where Lock n Load is concerned it seems that the developer may not have anticipated such an avalanche of modding interest in the game. It seems that the lead programmer, Tom, has done some work to accommodate modders concerns but who knows how far that might go.

I hope their sales are high enough that they will be releasing new titles quickly, and who knows perhaps there will be more support for game modifications as well.

I also agree with maitrebongo that the A.I. needs work as does the scenario editor.

[HobbesACW]

Different periods and theaters of war would certainly benefit from new game rules. This is surely where the devs should focus + working with modders
to quickly develop scenarios for the expansions that can take advantage of the new rules. Most people tend to want to play a scenario that has all the bells and whistles (as mentioned banzai charges, caves etc in the pacific). Most modders would probably be happy to get a mention in the game roll of honour and their scenarios and units added to the main release?

Cheers,
Chris

[baloo7777]

ORIGINAL: jcrohio

I just got done fiddling around with the JSGME Generic Mod Enabler. What I did was brought my game back to version 1.09 with no modifications. Got rid of all my new counter-sheets, maps etc. I installed JSGME right into HoS folder (I have this on a couple of other games and this is the way I have done it - a unique install for each game). Attached is a picture (which I hope is embedded). Took my HotB Scenarios and created a folder mimicking folder setup from Hos. Did the same with Heroes of the Gap files I downloaded from here. Note I took all files and placed them in the correct folders. Then it is just a matter of running the mod, it will offer a choice of what mod to install, it will backup any pertinent files, and run the mod chosen. When you want to switch mods simply run JSGME again and switch from one mod to another.

It does work well but we must keep mods together as seperate mods. LIke I have one mod to run HotG and and second to run HotB. There could be any number.

What do you guys think?

I can post a more comprehensive install guide if needed.
Jack

YES!!!!!! I followed the instructions that came when I downloaded the Generic Mod Enabler and was able to get the HotB mod to work on a clean download of HoS (updated to 1.09). I am glad you brought this method up. Much easier than editing the modules.dat file. Now to download the other mods! Thanks again jcrohio! And thanks to the modders and the developers also! [&o]