Announcing Imperia - my latest hobby project - the 5X 4X strategy game!

[Texashawk]

YES!!! Someone who actually knows the backstory of what MOO3 was supposed to be!!! IFPs, designations... yes, you've caught me out. Somewhat. I really respected what Emrich wanted to do... the problem was a game like that should never have been released under the MOO banner. If it hadn't and been released as he wanted it to be, it would have been a revolution. Instead, the publisher got cold feet and make him change his design into the half-baked mess that got released. Damn shame. But yes! Imperia I think will play a lot like MOO3 was originally designed, as far as the management aspect, and I hope people enjoy that design choice. Thanks!

-Steve

ORIGINAL: Anguille

interesting....sounds very much like what moo3 wanted to be before the departure of Alan Emrich. Good luck.

[RedArgo]

Looks interesting, hope it turns out well.

Weren't you working on an Honor Harrington inspired game a while ago? If so, how did that turn out?

[mllange]

Color me interested - good luck!

[Texashawk]

RedArgo,

Thanks! I hope so too. [:D] I was indeed working on it but I was not as consistent about externally backing up my builds and art assets, something that was learned painfully when my hard drive crashed. I now have multiple external backups of my projects, including Imperia. I hope to come back to the HH project one day, perhaps even as a tactical addition to Imperia (but not at all a priority)

-Steve

ORIGINAL: RedArgo

Looks interesting, hope it turns out well.

Weren't you working on an Honor Harrington inspired game a while ago? If so, how did that turn out?

[Texashawk]

nim8or,

Thanks!

-Steve

ORIGINAL: nim8or

Color me interested - good luck!

[aaatoysandmore]

I must say it looks very busy and I hope I don't have to work for NASA to play it. Remember to K.I.S.S. if you want a lot of players to play it as I won't play monster games or those that require 2 hours of thinking to make the first move (WitP anyone?).[:)]

[Texashawk]

aaatoysandmore,

Yes, I am not a UI specialist! [:D] However, the game is actually very easy to play - most of the data is there if you need it to get a better understanding of why your planets/systems/sectors are acting the way they are - things like cash flow, immigration/emmigration, wages for each sector. etc. are there but not 'necessary' to monitor from turn to turn - only when you have a problem on a planet and are figuring out what to do. The first turn will take longer since I usually look at the intel screen to see where I will have resource shortfalls and plan my trade network, build up some ADM in some smaller sector capitals by increasing the subsidy, look at which viceroys may be a problem down the road, and figure out which planets will need to be brought into the green by manipulating the economy. Once you understand the UI and the concepts of Imperia, the first turn will only take a few minutes. Nothing like WITP, believe me. Or WITE. [:D] Macro scale, not micro!!!

Thanks for your thoughts!

-Steve

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

I must say it looks very busy and I hope I don't have to work for NASA to play it. Remember to K.I.S.S. if you want a lot of players to play it as I won't play monster games or those that require 2 hours of thinking to make the first move (WitP anyone?).[:)]

[Texashawk]

FYI I have updated the blog to add an entry on how the economic system works.

[Anguille]

ORIGINAL: Texashawk

YES!!! Someone who actually knows the backstory of what MOO3 was supposed to be!!! IFPs, designations... yes, you've caught me out. Somewhat. I really respected what Emrich wanted to do... the problem was a game like that should never have been released under the MOO banner. If it hadn't and been released as he wanted it to be, it would have been a revolution. Instead, the publisher got cold feet and make him change his design into the half-baked mess that got released. Damn shame. But yes! Imperia I think will play a lot like MOO3 was originally designed, as far as the management aspect, and I hope people enjoy that design choice. Thanks!

-Steve

Nice. I am long time MOO player (since 1993). Indeed, the game should have been called differentely. Looking forward to your game. Cheers.

[Kuokkanen]

Texashawk, do you know about game Starshatter? That game puts together space combat simulation (fighters AND starships alike), strategy, and dynamic campaigns into one delicious package. It started as hobby project, but after many many years of development, Matrix published it under name Starshatter: Ultimate Space Combat. I've got it on DVD. Some time later, improved version of the game was released under name Starshatter: The Gathering Storm, and owners of the earlier release could order it for discount (not in effect anymore). Game was heavily modifiable, and there were tons of mods before first disc went to sale. I think one other game, Titans of Steel, has similar history...

You could have opportunity here to do the same. Matrix could (maybe) even get you in contact with graphic designer. Or if you want stay independent and keep game cost-free, you can ask around the Web. I wonder if some Starshatter modders could give you a hand... One of them is Pheagey. But since his latest post in these forums was made in 2008, he is unlikely to reply to any PMs, unless he has e-mail notification turned on.

[Texashawk]

Matti,

Yes, I've heard of Starshatter and it looked fascinating when it was released. I didn't play it unfortunately - there are several games in Matrix's early days that I regret not picking up that are no longer available - but I am aware of its style. I'm not saying that I would never ever want to publish a version of Imperia someday but I feel like there's a big jump between your commitment on a hobby project and a commercial product.

When you release a product for money, you are accountable to your fans and customers. I would never leave a product unsupported or release a product half-assed and unready, which seems to be the trend in game publishing these days. I'm also not a big fan of the latest trend of 'alpha access' where you essentially pay to be a beta tester (or alpha tester!), something that once upon a time people would pay YOU for (or at least give you the game for free!) I think as games get more and more expensive to make, people are turning to smaller indie games to get something original, but in the race to stay within hailing distance of the big guys, in today's game market there is at least a baseline visual and auditory quality that is expected even in a small commercial game, and frankly I do not feel that I have that ability. If I had (free) help - someone who just wanted to volunteer their talents, that'd be cool, but unless and until I ever went commercial it would remain a community project.

I will reach out to Pheagey if you think he might be interested, however. Thanks for the tip and thanks for your interest!

-Steve
[

quote]ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

Texashawk, do you know about game Starshatter? That game puts together space combat simulation (fighters AND starships alike), strategy, and dynamic campaigns into one delicious package. It started as hobby project, but after many many years of development, Matrix published it under name Starshatter: Ultimate Space Combat. I've got it on DVD. Some time later, improved version of the game was released under name Starshatter: The Gathering Storm, and owners of the earlier release could order it for discount (not in effect anymore). Game was heavily modifiable, and there were tons of mods before first disc went to sale. I think one other game, Titans of Steel, has similar history...

You could have opportunity here to do the same. Matrix could (maybe) even get you in contact with graphic designer. Or if you want stay independent and keep game cost-free, you can ask around the Web. I wonder if some Starshatter modders could give you a hand... One of them is Pheagey. But since his latest post in these forums was made in 2008, he is unlikely to reply to any PMs, unless he has e-mail notification turned on.
[/quote]

[Kuokkanen]

I have now read through whole thread. I have some suggestions to offer.

ORIGINAL: Texashawk

As mentioned earlier, planets are not micromanaged. They are very complex entities whose actions are governed in part by their population, the stats of the planet itself, its viceroy, and most importantly its primary designation. All planets have at least one primary designation - examples would be a farming world, a manufacturing center, a heavy military world, a scientific conclave, a prison planet, etc. Designations basically shape how a planet will evolve. Depending on the size of the planet, up to 2 additional 'secondary' designations can also be assigned to more round out a planet's development.

That, and level of information you also mentioned, in whole Empire wide scale promises information overload for new player, who isn't already experienced with such. So I recommend this: in addition of PREMISE in first post, there could be another scenario where player doesn't play emperor but some lesser character who has less star systems to manage. How about this: at first player has only colonization fleet and task to choose and colonize uninhabited system. Empire and emperor would still be there, as would be rest of the hierarchy. Player receives orders, edicts, and gameplay instructions. Sector viceroy or emperor himself could give edict that designation of player's colony is prison planet and criminals start to arrive and populate the Place, with expected problems. Player can ask for help from above ("I need more troops to maintain order"), but also get orders and edicts ("You are to turn those criminals to disciplined soldiers and prepare them for war"). Imperium Galactica (the original) was something like that.

Another alternative scenario could be the fall of the first empire, where player's task is to try prevent collapse of the empire you described. Tough one for experienced space 4X grognards.

[Texashawk]

FYI, I have updated the imperiagame.wordpress.com blog. Since I will not always update this thread, I recommend following this blog if you want to keep up with Imperia's progress!

[Texashawk]

Hmmm. Also like Caesar games. Very interesting! And it actually wouldn't be that hard to pull off from a programming perspective once the empire AI is installed. I like it! What other ideas you got? [:D]

Steve

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

I have now read through whole thread. I have some suggestions to offer.

ORIGINAL: Texashawk

As mentioned earlier, planets are not micromanaged. They are very complex entities whose actions are governed in part by their population, the stats of the planet itself, its viceroy, and most importantly its primary designation. All planets have at least one primary designation - examples would be a farming world, a manufacturing center, a heavy military world, a scientific conclave, a prison planet, etc. Designations basically shape how a planet will evolve. Depending on the size of the planet, up to 2 additional 'secondary' designations can also be assigned to more round out a planet's development.

That, and level of information you also mentioned, in whole Empire wide scale promises information overload for new player, who isn't already experienced with such. So I recommend this: in addition of PREMISE in first post, there could be another scenario where player doesn't play emperor but some lesser character who has less star systems to manage. How about this: at first player has only colonization fleet and task to choose and colonize uninhabited system. Empire and emperor would still be there, as would be rest of the hierarchy. Player receives orders, edicts, and gameplay instructions. Sector viceroy or emperor himself could give edict that designation of player's colony is prison planet and criminals start to arrive and populate the Place, with expected problems. Player can ask for help from above ("I need more troops to maintain order"), but also get orders and edicts ("You are to turn those criminals to disciplined soldiers and prepare them for war"). Imperium Galactica (the original) was something like that.

Another alternative scenario could be the fall of the first empire, where player's task is to try prevent collapse of the empire you described. Tough one for experienced space 4X grognards.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: Texashawk

What other ideas you got? [:D]

Hmm...

How about some more variety to elements Empire is made of? Different systems could have different government types and different relations to the Empire. Those systems part of capital system's sector could be ruled by emperor's relatives, nobles, viceroys, and governors appointed by emperor himself. Other sectors could have something else. One sector could be autonomous vassal state which pays tax to the Empire. Other sector could be independent ally like what Finland was to Germany in Second World War, and to Soviet Union afterwards. Another sector could be collection of independent systems with one central governing body equal of European Union. And some sectors could have systems that are part of the Empire like Hong Kong was part of British Empire, but rest of the systems in the sector are not.

Even those systems integral part of the Empire could have king or democratic government to handle the local affairs. If emperor (player) goes to meddle too much with that, like change type of government and appoint viceroy, it would be cause of greater problems than renaming of system. Edict to draft large number of local troops out of the system against protests would be cause of problems, and greater problems if those troops don't ever return home. Of course if emperor gives too much leeway for sector and system governments, it too can lead to problems. Look at the history of Roman Empire, Russia before and during communist revolution, collapse of Soviet Union, and Ukraine today. Emperor comes to order around too much = problems. Emperor allows local goverment abuse its power = problems. Emperor doesn't do what must be done becouse fear of protests and problems pressing the matters would cause = enemies overrun the Empire.

Add some micromanagement. For tutorial scenario (where player has just 1 system and task to bring more into the fold) that would give something more to do than just press the 'next turn' button. Ruler of 1 system could well order construction of 10 science labs, and maybe those will find medical use for local plants = profit. Emperor should not have need to do that. But should emperor decide improve literacy rate of backwater colony, and do it right ( = without raising local tax), that could lead to improvement of relations. Oh yes, local population could have different alignments: some population could have greater loyalty towards local government, and others to emperor himself. Emperor micromanages sector or system the right way, or kick abusing government out of the rule = increased loyalty towards emperor. With expense of ADM points.

Speaking about ADM points, player could get project proposals. Accepting the proposal would cost less ADM points than carrying it out without. Science lab example: system governor (player in tutorial scenario) would get proposal to build science labs. Accepting the proposal would cost less ADM points to get science labs built than getting it started without the proposal.

Even in tutorial scenario, player would have access to all the information about the Empire with accuracy and reliability of Wikipedia. But sending in spies would bring more details. Spy could inform player capital system of sector (player is part of) has some unrest. Player could use espionage to make situation worse. When it reaches the boiling point, player comes to help crack it down, and viceroy (or whatev) of the sector treats player as a big damn hero, and offers his daughter for marriage along with half the sector. If ploy succeeds that is.

Oh yes, some variety to scenarios to increase replay value. Event lists and random number generator would be some ways for that. There could be large number of possible edicts player would get in tutorial scenario, but only small number randomly selected ones would come to player's way. System in verge of rebellion rebels or not, depending on RNG result. Combination of player's skill and probabilities should be deciding factors, not predictable mathematics. Beating the odds should be (sometimes) valid choice. Otherwise Finland would have been overrun by the Red Army and Germany wouldn't have even tried Second World War.

[ASHBERY76]

ORIGINAL: Anguille

interesting....sounds very much like what moo3 wanted to be before the departure of Alan Emrich. Good luck.

I remember fondly.Never did a game sound so interesting before they purged the game.A galactic empire simulation

[Texashawk]

Wow. Some good stuff here. Let's digest.

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

ORIGINAL: Texashawk

What other ideas you got? [:D]

Hmm...

How about some more variety to elements Empire is made of? Different systems could have different government types and different relations to the Empire. Those systems part of capital system's sector could be ruled by emperor's relatives, nobles, viceroys, and governors appointed by emperor himself. Other sectors could have something else. One sector could be autonomous vassal state which pays tax to the Empire. Other sector could be independent ally like what Finland was to Germany in Second World War, and to Soviet Union afterwards. Another sector could be collection of independent systems with one central governing body equal of European Union. And some sectors could have systems that are part of the Empire like Hong Kong was part of British Empire, but rest of the systems in the sector are not.

Interesting. That would give sectors more uniqueness. Originally, I was going to call sectors provinces and that kind of idea lends itself to my first though. To do it, however, I would have to program a full-scale CK-type character relation system. I have jealousy between all other characters, but that's about it for now.

Even those systems integral part of the Empire could have king or democratic government to handle the local affairs. If emperor (player) goes to meddle too much with that, like change type of government and appoint viceroy, it would be cause of greater problems than renaming of system. Edict to draft large number of local troops out of the system against protests would be cause of problems, and greater problems if those troops don't ever return home. Of course if emperor gives too much leeway for sector and system governments, it too can lead to problems. Look at the history of Roman Empire, Russia before and during communist revolution, collapse of Soviet Union, and Ukraine today. Emperor comes to order around too much = problems. Emperor allows local goverment abuse its power = problems. Emperor doesn't do what must be done becouse fear of protests and problems pressing the matters would cause = enemies overrun the Empire.

See above.

Add some micromanagement. For tutorial scenario (where player has just 1 system and task to bring more into the fold) that would give something more to do than just press the 'next turn' button. Ruler of 1 system could well order construction of 10 science labs, and maybe those will find medical use for local plants = profit. Emperor should not have need to do that. But should emperor decide improve literacy rate of backwater colony, and do it right ( = without raising local tax), that could lead to improvement of relations. Oh yes, local population could have different alignments: some population could have greater loyalty towards local government, and others to emperor himself. Emperor micromanages sector or system the right way, or kick abusing government out of the rule = increased loyalty towards emperor. With expense of ADM points.

If I decide to add the 'career' mode, this will definitely be in in some form.

Speaking about ADM points, player could get project proposals. Accepting the proposal would cost less ADM points than carrying it out without. Science lab example: system governor (player in tutorial scenario) would get proposal to build science labs. Accepting the proposal would cost less ADM points to get science labs built than getting it started without the proposal.

This will actually already be in, in the form of requests. You will have alerts from your viceroy letting you know that you have requests for contact from certain viceroys/governors. Since contacting a character costs an admin point, you will have to choose who is most important. They will then tell you something that they are requesting, and if you grant it, it will be considered an Edict with 100% approval. If not, their anger will increase and their Loyalty will drop depending on the request.

Even in tutorial scenario, player would have access to all the information about the Empire with accuracy and reliability of Wikipedia. But sending in spies would bring more details. Spy could inform player capital system of sector (player is part of) has some unrest. Player could use espionage to make situation worse. When it reaches the boiling point, player comes to help crack it down, and viceroy (or whatev) of the sector treats player as a big damn hero, and offers his daughter for marriage along with half the sector. If ploy succeeds that is.

This will be in as intel events and there are already informers/spies in the game.

Oh yes, some variety to scenarios to increase replay value. Event lists and random number generator would be some ways for that. There could be large number of possible edicts player would get in tutorial scenario, but only small number randomly selected ones would come to player's way. System in verge of rebellion rebels or not, depending on RNG result. Combination of player's skill and probabilities should be deciding factors, not predictable mathematics. Beating the odds should be (sometimes) valid choice. Otherwise Finland would have been overrun by the Red Army and Germany wouldn't have even tried Second World War.

Events will be a big part of the game later in development.

Some great ideas there... keep 'em coming, Matti!!

-Steve

[Texashawk]

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

ORIGINAL: Anguille

interesting....sounds very much like what moo3 wanted to be before the departure of Alan Emrich. Good luck.

I remember fondly.Never did a game sound so interesting before they purged the game.A galactic empire simulation

Indeed. I really wished that game had been released. I think the best way to describe Imperia is a mix of Emrich's MOO3 design and Crusader Kings character management.

[zakblood]

does sound very interesting the more i read it and looks good as well, good luck in the endeavor

[Anguille]

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

ORIGINAL: Anguille

interesting....sounds very much like what moo3 wanted to be before the departure of Alan Emrich. Good luck.

I remember fondly.Never did a game sound so interesting before they purged the game.A galactic empire simulation

Back then, i didn't go that much on internet and wasn't active in forums...MOO3 was the first thing that got me hooked on internet and forums...checked every free seconds i had. Those were great times...