Turnaround? Lowpe (J) vs Tiemanj (A) Stock

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mind_messing
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by mind_messing »

Those destroyers the training cruisers tangled with had depleted ammo from previous engagements, so I thought the risk of using them here was small.

More power to them, then. I might just have my experiences soured by poor performances from the training crusiers in my game.
As flag in a tanker convoy are you hoping they catch a torpedo meant for a tankers? I had not thought about using them that way, usually use them in Amphibious invasions but that window expires with the amphibious bonus.

As a flagship of a tanker TF, they can:

- allow the commander to be chosen from the better IJN warship leader pools, rather than the usual, crap merchant captains, lieutenants and other low-ranking trash that often command escorts or merchantmen. This is quite a big point, as a good leader might just make the difference between a torpedo hit or not.
- provide organic seaplane search and ASW (eventually) to keep subs detected.
- be able to take a torpedo or two for the tankers. The crusiers can surive, the tankers, not so much.
- if, in some odd event, you force a submarine to the surface, having a ship with the skill to actually hit things isn't to be underestimated. The vast majority of IJN escorts are either very under-armed (thing the SC ships) or have abysmal crew ratings (thing PB's). The last thing you want attacking your tankers is a surfaced sub, as even the deck pop-gun can set the fuel on fire, and once Japanese tankers are burning, they'll never go out.
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Lowpe
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a flagship of a tanker TF, they can:

- allow the commander to be chosen from the better IJN warship leader pools, rather than the usual, crap merchant captains, lieutenants and other low-ranking trash that often command escorts or merchantmen. This is quite a big point, as a good leader might just make the difference between a torpedo hit or not.
- provide organic seaplane search and ASW (eventually) to keep subs detected.
- be able to take a torpedo or two for the tankers. The crusiers can surive, the tankers, not so much.
- if, in some odd event, you force a submarine to the surface, having a ship with the skill to actually hit things isn't to be underestimated. The vast majority of IJN escorts are either very under-armed (thing the SC ships) or have abysmal crew ratings (thing PB's). The last thing you want attacking your tankers is a surfaced sub, as even the deck pop-gun can set the fuel on fire, and once Japanese tankers are burning, they'll never go out.

Very compelling. Thank you .... they will have a different job shortly...
mind_messing
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a flagship of a tanker TF, they can:

- allow the commander to be chosen from the better IJN warship leader pools, rather than the usual, crap merchant captains, lieutenants and other low-ranking trash that often command escorts or merchantmen. This is quite a big point, as a good leader might just make the difference between a torpedo hit or not.
- provide organic seaplane search and ASW (eventually) to keep subs detected.
- be able to take a torpedo or two for the tankers. The crusiers can surive, the tankers, not so much.
- if, in some odd event, you force a submarine to the surface, having a ship with the skill to actually hit things isn't to be underestimated. The vast majority of IJN escorts are either very under-armed (thing the SC ships) or have abysmal crew ratings (thing PB's). The last thing you want attacking your tankers is a surfaced sub, as even the deck pop-gun can set the fuel on fire, and once Japanese tankers are burning, they'll never go out.

Very compelling. Thank you .... they will have a different job shortly...

They also make decent flagships for amphibious task forces, but after the amphib bonus is gone, the chance to use them as such diminishes.
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Lokasenna
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by Lokasenna »

I'm not sure that the TF commander's naval skill factors into whether a ship gets hit by a torpedo or not. I always assumed that was the ship commander's naval skill.
mind_messing
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'm not sure that the TF commander's naval skill factors into whether a ship gets hit by a torpedo or not. I always assumed that was the ship commander's naval skill.


You might be right. Manual section 6.3.6 isn't and 6.4.4.1 doesn't mention anything about avoiding torpedos.

Even asuming it doesn't effect it, the floatplane, heavier guns and eventual depth charges makes it more than worthwhile alone, and having a high skilled commander would just be insurance. I'd certainly want somebody competant in charge of my tanker task forces.
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Lowpe
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by Lowpe »

A little while back I showed the serious shortage of planes Japan is prosecuting this war with, especially fighters. I don't believe I have any fully filled out squadrons other than the carriers, and pools are below 10 for all fighters planes except Claudes.

I am looking at frames I never built before to help bridge the gap between Oscar IC and Tojo IIc and the better late war planes I am researching. I really don't want to allocate the HI to build Oscar Ic, or really even the Zero either, just enough to get by on.

In a couple of months we will be adding these two fighters to help. Lots of units upgrade to the Dinah (almost all IJA fighter groups it seems), and I suspect she will do really well in an anti-bomber role, especially at night and she uses a the Ha-33 engine. I am curious to see what the Dinah can do in some longer range sweeps or escorts for example. Used not as a front line fighter, but in these roles to free up Tojo for other duties.

Using drop tanks, the Dinah can escort the Helen IIa to her full range...and if you wanted to get non-historic she could escort IJN torpedo bombers too. Would she be better than the A6M2 for this use? Better durability, faster speed (might not count for much in an escort role), higher cost, so the answer is a definite maybe.


The Nick B model will also be used as above plus I will try to get a unit trained up in low nav or low ground (for use in China)...not as many units can upgrade to this plane.

I don't think the cannon accuracy will be too terrible for the intended uses and certainly no worse than the Oscar Ic at bringing planes down. We shall see...



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mind_messing
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by mind_messing »

I think the Nick is better in nearly every respect than the Dinah fighter.

As a fighter, the Dinah needs to depend on the very unaccruate 37mm, while the Nick always has a cannon or machine guns as a secondary weapon. Frankly, there are better aircraft for escort missions that require only one engine(Oscar, Zero).

As a bomber killer/airbase CAP, the Nick has armour, the Dinah doesn't. The Nick also climbs faster than the Dinah, and has a higher gun rating.

Even as an attack plane, the Nicks get bombs as well as cannons.

I wouldn't waste the HI or a factory slot on the Dinah fighter. There are better fighters at half the cost, and aircraft flying in the escort role normally get shot down in droves anyways, so why not let Oscars be ablative armour than Dinahs?
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Lowpe
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by Lowpe »

Have you actually used the Dinah in early 1943? I suspect you are right in all regards, but I still want to try the plane.

I do like the Nick better and consider it a must have plane, but never built the b model before and there are only so many units that upgrade to it.

I do not plan on making a ton of them...probably enough for two squadrons unless they actually work well. I also have plenty of Ha-33 engines now, before the better planes use that engine.

One of the strategic goals I set for this game, being so far behind the eight ball when I started, was to experiment with every available plane. My heavy industry is in good shape, so no worries there...plenty of other worries though.[:D]



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Lokasenna
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by Lokasenna »

CL guns have double the accuracy. I believe that makes the accuracy of the Dinah gun a 2, effectively.
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Lowpe
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

CL guns have double the accuracy. I believe that makes the accuracy of the Dinah gun a 2, effectively.


Woohoo! I am doubling production![:D]
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by Spidery »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a flagship of a tanker TF, they can:

- allow the commander to be chosen from the better IJN warship leader pools, rather than the usual, crap merchant captains, lieutenants and other low-ranking trash that often command escorts or merchantmen. This is quite a big point, as a good leader might just make the difference between a torpedo hit or not.
- provide organic seaplane search and ASW (eventually) to keep subs detected.
- be able to take a torpedo or two for the tankers. The crusiers can surive, the tankers, not so much.
- if, in some odd event, you force a submarine to the surface, having a ship with the skill to actually hit things isn't to be underestimated. The vast majority of IJN escorts are either very under-armed (thing the SC ships) or have abysmal crew ratings (thing PB's). The last thing you want attacking your tankers is a surfaced sub, as even the deck pop-gun can set the fuel on fire, and once Japanese tankers are burning, they'll never go out.

Very compelling. Thank you .... they will have a different job shortly...
Even if they don't protect against torpedo attack a high Nav skill may make the escorts more effective as screens.

One downside is that their cruise speed is lower than that of the bigger tankers.
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Lowpe
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by Lowpe »

Oct 11, 1942

Lots of submarine attacks for both sides, IJN RO submarines miss on his ships heading east to the Aluetians, but the submarine commander reports fires, heavy damage on the xAP Mungana and then later another encounter and the fires are now heavy as is the damage.

Allied submarines are spotted and attacked by destroyers, and in turn attack several destroyers with all sides simply expending ammunition for no damage.

Sinking sounds are heard twice, probably once for the Mungana and then on the sunk ships report the CL Helena shows up near Soerabaja last hit by a 18 inch type 91 torp but no float plane destroyed.

Quiet air day, but Allies do naval search around Palembang spotting numerous convoys. 20 bombers still holding out at Batavia so this is troublesome. It is not outside the realm of possibility that the Allies try a carrier strike from the west of Palembang. Although, the last time he ventured into these waters Bettys put 6 torpedoes into two battleships. Fully prepared to do that again.

32 Allied fighters show up at Soerabaja but I didn't bomb or sweep.

Bettys fly from Kali, in DEI, and sink the Mulberra xak (12 vp).

Kuriles: two bombardment groups hit his base, now empty of planes, and all invasion forces will be gathered within 4 days at the maximum. Long range search of the Aluetians show no surface threats other than two light cruisers.

Soerabaja, I am waiting for two nice AA units to move into the hex before having another deliberate attack...maybe 1-2 days more.
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Lowpe
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by Lowpe »

Tracker shows that the Allies lost 4 more ships yesterday, I can account for two with pretty good certainty, but it puts my total to 501 ships lost for the Allies.[X(]



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Lowpe
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by Lowpe »

Kuriles:

The buildup for counter invasion is almost complete, almost all ships and troops are in theater. Invasion ships will start loading shortly.

No present threat sighted. The Yamoto is one of the last arriving warships, and she is south of Tokyo now.

Should I use the Yamoto to counter battery fire with the invasion force, or shore bombard? I am thinking shore bombard and use a lesser battleship for counter battery. I plan to have a spare battleship to rotate into the Amphibious force on day two.

I shortened the range recently, and there was only one defensive gun that fired at the bombardment group...a positive sign I think.

This could be a fertile area for Allied submarines and I think it was tactically short sighted that the Allies didn't swamp the area with submarines. It seems planes often don't fly, giving a strong advantage to the submarines. With bases in the Aluetians, there should be no reason why there aren't a lot of S class with working torpedoes here tormenting me.

Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining. Just pointing out to you AFB that should you raid in the North like this, you should bring lots of submarines too.



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mind_messing
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by mind_messing »

Should I use the Yamoto to counter battery fire with the invasion force, or shore bombard? I am thinking shore bombard and use a lesser battleship for counter battery. I plan to have a spare battleship to rotate into the Amphibious force on day two.

Keep the Yamato for bombardment missions, let the older battleships take out the coastal guns. You want those 46cm shells hitting the airstrip and the troops on Onnekotan-jima, not taking out dinky coastal batteries.

Also, have you got the logistical side of the Yamato's deployment sorted? Those 46cm guns cause a great deal of damage, but they're not exactly easy to reload. While Tokyo is close, having something closer would mean you can start lobbing 46cm shells every four or five days instead of every week or so.
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Lowpe
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Also, have you got the logistical side of the Yamato's deployment sorted? Those 46cm guns cause a great deal of damage, but they're not exactly easy to reload. While Tokyo is close, having something closer would mean you can start lobbing 46cm shells every four or five days instead of every week or so.

I don't see how. According to the manual AKEs don't work, a size 3 port needs 1280 naval support and and size 6 port, which I have several closer to the action needs 1148 nav support and I am a while from getting size 7 where the required naval support really drops (down to 188).

I assume this is the reason there are so many naval HQs at Truk.
mind_messing
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Also, have you got the logistical side of the Yamato's deployment sorted? Those 46cm guns cause a great deal of damage, but they're not exactly easy to reload. While Tokyo is close, having something closer would mean you can start lobbing 46cm shells every four or five days instead of every week or so.

I don't see how. According to the manual AKEs don't work, a size 3 port needs 1280 naval support and and size 6 port, which I have several closer to the action needs 1148 nav support and I am a while from getting size 7 where the required naval support really drops (down to 188).

I assume this is the reason there are so many naval HQs at Truk.

Build up Ominato to size 7 and move one of the big 200 squad Naval HQs there and you'll be able to rearm everything on your ships, as well as carrier sorties. Check all the units in the Home Islands: anything with engineers gets sent to Ominatro for a month or two till the port makes size 7.

I have to confess that I've not even looked at it myself, as Yamato's not yet arrived. You mentioning the Yamato reminded me that I've not even thought of how I'm going to reload those monster guns.
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Lokasenna
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by Lokasenna »

You need Naval Support to do it.

I actually ended up sending Naval Support to a couple of locations in my Japan game to help with repairs, as it wasn't/isn't needed yet for reloads...
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Lowpe
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by Lowpe »

So far the Yamoto has had an interesting two months. She bombarded Batavia with excellent results in hitting the airbase, planes and troops and not the factories, and she sank two light cruisers with three rounds.

She has guzzled a lot of fuel, too.[:D]

Here are the ports I can currently rearm at:

HI: Osaka, Hiroshima, Yokohama, Nagasaki

Truk

Camranh Bay
Singers

Shanghai

At first, I didn't want to send her from Singers all the way to the Kuriles, but then got to thinking that I should.

Obviously, I gave absolutely no thought to the Yamoto. I never, ever, make her. Live and Learn. I am also making her sister ship, so I am going to work on making other ports for them to reload at.

I will work on Ominato (naval support is very nearly there) and port level 6 as that port currently has a ton of engineers, but that is not the most convenient port in that theater.

Sapporo, Hakodate, Shikuka can all get there with just one more port level and a decent Naval HQ. Wakkani is two port levels away.

Hong Kong is shy a few naval squads, so I will add them. Then I need to think about where else eventually. DEI? Manila?

Something else to think about!

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Lowpe
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RE: Kuriles Invaded - Aug 29th, 1942

Post by Lowpe »

I have two AA regiments like this. Both packed, and were transported to Singers, and when they unpacked they lost their big guns. Over two weeks and no replacements...[&:]

This is distressing.

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