Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - The air war in China- DBB, SLs, PDU OFF

[GreyJoy]

Well, if Erik wants to abandon Calcutta he doesn't have much time left if he wanna do it in good order. Maybe he's just waiting for some units to be saved from Burma, or maybe he wants to fight there. Probably it all depends on what he has at Calcutta at the moment. I'll know in 2/3 days I guess.

[GreyJoy]

And these are, at the moment, the airgroups that have led the air war so far.
Quite surprisingly, the group with most kills is Ryujo's one, with not less than 71 kills.
I'm sure things will change soon. As soon as DH becomes a lvl 2, the bulk of the battle will be carried on by LBA groups and the Oscars will have a big role in the attrition war I'm thinking of.
I should be able to outproduce him in the Indian front.

[GreyJoy]

And here's a screenshot of my leading fighter pilots. Unfortunately yesterday battles have put quite a toll on my leading aces, with 2 KIA and 2 MIA... but there's no time to weep for anyone. The battle will continue and Mrs.Death will have lots of friends to play with very soon

[GreyJoy]

Now the only question is: with 2300 AVs (6 Divisions) would it be possible to conquer an heavy urban hex defended by 50,000 men?
How costly would it be?
These were the results Mr.Kane was obtaining against NY59Giants (using 9 divisions against 1400 AVs)

Ground combat at Calcutta (52,37)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 128768 troops, 2461 guns, 861 vehicles, Assault Value = 3424

Defending force 41685 troops, 514 guns, 1217 vehicles, Assault Value = 1436

Japanese adjusted assault: 2210

Allied adjusted defense: 3849

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 3)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
4303 casualties reported
Squads: 13 destroyed, 551 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 67 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 64 disabled
Guns lost 95 (4 destroyed, 91 disabled)
Vehicles lost 14 (2 destroyed, 12 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
977 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 82 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 95 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 34 disabled
Vehicles lost 80 (8 destroyed, 72 disabled)

Assaulting units:
5th Division
Imperial Guards Division
53rd Division
18th Division
38th Division
56th Division
1st Tank Regiment
33rd Division
2nd Recon Regiment
1st RF Gun Battalion
15th Army
20th AA Regiment
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
35th Fld AA Gun Co
25th Army
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
26th Fld AA Gun Co
Southern Army
2nd Mortar Battalion
2nd Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
255th Armoured Brigade
Fort William Fortress
20th Indian Division
254th Armoured Brigade
6th Australian Division
43rd Cavalry Regiment
36th Indian Brigade
Eastern Command
23rd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
RAF 223 Group Wing
223 Group RAF
2/13th Field Regiment
2/11th Field Regiment
1st Bengal Construction Battalion




Ground combat at Calcutta (52,37)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 112585 troops, 2525 guns, 674 vehicles, Assault Value = 3012

Defending force 55226 troops, 657 guns, 1507 vehicles, Assault Value = 1610

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 1

Japanese adjusted assault: 803

Allied adjusted defense: 4193

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 5 (fort level 1)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
4660 casualties reported
Squads: 15 destroyed, 300 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 39 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 69 disabled
Guns lost 70 (2 destroyed, 68 disabled)
Vehicles lost 22 (7 destroyed, 15 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
854 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 175 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 46 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 19 disabled
Guns lost 20 (1 destroyed, 19 disabled)
Vehicles lost 86 (10 destroyed, 76 disabled)

Assaulting units:
56th Division
1st Tank Regiment
5th Division
18th Division
53rd Division
33rd Division
Imperial Guards Division
38th Division
2nd Recon Regiment
15th Army
25th Army
26th Fld AA Gun Co
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
2nd Mortar Battalion
3rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
Southern Army
35th Fld AA Gun Co
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
1st RF Gun Battalion
20th AA Regiment
2nd Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
254th Armoured Brigade
7th Australian Division
20th Indian Division
6th Australian Division
Fort William Fortress
255th Armoured Brigade
36th Indian Brigade
2/13th Field Regiment
23rd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
223 Group RAF
Eastern Command
RAF 223 Group Wing
2/11th Field Regiment
1st Bengal Construction Battalion







Ground combat at Calcutta (52,37)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 128798 troops, 2582 guns, 860 vehicles, Assault Value = 3264

Defending force 54777 troops, 693 guns, 1533 vehicles, Assault Value = 1443

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 0

Japanese adjusted assault: 1513

Allied adjusted defense: 4173

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 0)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
5916 casualties reported
Squads: 15 destroyed, 234 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 43 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 72 disabled
Guns lost 42 (1 destroyed, 41 disabled)
Vehicles lost 33 (2 destroyed, 31 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
2000 casualties reported
Squads: 35 destroyed, 170 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 70 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 31 disabled
Guns lost 53 (14 destroyed, 39 disabled)
Vehicles lost 43 (4 destroyed, 39 disabled)

Assaulting units:
5th Division
33rd Division
38th Division
18th Division
Imperial Guards Division
1st Tank Regiment
56th Division
53rd Division
2nd Recon Regiment
15th Army
3rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
26th Fld AA Gun Co
20th AA Regiment
35th Fld AA Gun Co
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
2nd Mortar Battalion
25th Army
1st RF Gun Battalion
Southern Army
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
Fort William Fortress
6th Australian Division
20th Indian Division
255th Armoured Brigade
254th Armoured Brigade
7th Australian Division
36th Indian Brigade
Eastern Command
23rd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
223 Group RAF
48th Light AA Regiment
2/13th Field Regiment
2/11th Field Regiment
RAF 223 Group Wing
1st Bengal Construction Battalion

[GreyJoy]

Not very promising to be honest...[X(]

[ny59giants]

The 6th Aussie Division has just arrived at Aden when you invaded India and I highly doubt it is past Karachi at this point. The components for 7th comes in another three weeks more or less. Has Erik learned enough about micro-management of Allied devices to have gotten some of his Indian troops upgraded to "Ind Inf Section 42"??

Ind Inf Section: Anti-Armor = 5 and Anti-Soft = 14

Ind Inf Section 42: Anti-Armor = 15 and Anti-Soft = 19

Ind Inf Section 43: Anti-Armor = 75 and Anti-Soft = 21

IMO, he hasn't gotten enough of the 42 version to upgrade anything but a few small battalions. Add in one of the brigades at Calcutta at start has 20 in both morale and experience. Not good for the defenders. [X(]

[GreyJoy]

Is there supposed to be a "GHOST" river between DH and Calcutta???????
It is not represented! How am I supposed to know!?

Com'on... ((((((

Sent only 3 divisions while the other 3 are still 15 miles away. They got impaled. Trashed 1 and half division completely. If I knew I would have sent them all at once...

really disappointed. I don't feel I did anything wrong here. The map is more than misleading.

Wanna cry[:(]

[ny59giants]

I don't see it here either?? [&:]

[GreyJoy]

Asked Erik if he's ok in re-doing the turn. I would send all the 6 divisions at once now that I know.
Alternatively, we could ask to some of the guru-map boys to modify that hex.

Let's first hear what Erik thinks about it

[Lokasenna]

I was surprised by that the first time I did it against the AI as well. I pushed F6 to check the map, and yep... :-/.

[MrKane]

Ups, In my original version last post here was sentence: "And remember about river between Diamond Harbor and Calcutta." I have removed it just before sending post to forum because I decided it is obvious info and you are know about it.

[GreyJoy]

@Tom... wouch... if I only knew! )


Erik was so kind to accept my request for a redo. I've shown him the screenshot of my troops at DH, in order to get fair with the fact that I've seen what he has at Calcutta. Also told him that I'm coming with my 6 divisions and that I have the Imperial Guards ID in reserve at Singa.
At Calcutta he has 1200 AVs, behind 3 forts. The 18th UK DIV, some Indian Bde and two armoured Bdes... ouch...
I had to reset all the movements and start the whole process back again, thus losing at least 5 days[:(].
However now the whole army in moving...10 hexes per day...slow

Ok, back to the game:

Jan 23-24, 1942

While CAR DIV 1 moves throught the strait of Merak and gets back to Singa, at least 3 enemy subs find their death at Merak...taking mines [:D]. Many more subs are spotted moving north passing by the western coast of Sumatra.
2 of my SAGs just pass Ceylon and are moving towards Northern India, trying to interdict the sealanes between Aden and Karachi.
CAR DiV 1 is already on its way.

At DH the enemy has evacuated the airfields. My zeros find empty skies for two days in a row. Good.
Now DH should be almost there to get to AF lvl 2, and that will mean that i'll be able to move back the Kaga's group and leave the task to the LBA boys.
300 Japanese bombers are ready at Akyab and Rangoon.

In Luzon, the americans come up again with their P-40s, but this time my Nates and Tojos (the experimental sentai) do better and down two of them, losing 1 Nate.

CAR DIV 2 is still at Timor, waiting for some convoys to be moved (4th ID, 16th Army HQ, 3 Base forces and 3 SNFL units)

In CENTPAC, my subs are trying to sneak through the great defences the allies have put to defend the damaged Yorktown (at Pennyr Island). The ships is reported by my glens to be disbanded in a lvl 1 port...but despite my attempts, not a single subs managed to sneak through. We keep on trying...but the DL is really high and my guys always risk to be sunk by his ASW assets... but it's well worth the risk!

Reinforced Horn Island and PM. Many more units are coming down to SOPAC (base forces, little companies and some AA units).

What else? China... well, everything is slowed down there. Not making any progresses anywhere

[GreyJoy]

254th Armoured Brigade
44th Indian Brigade
18th British Division
Fort William
1st Patiala Lancers Regiment
255th Armoured Brigade
45th Indian Brigade
50th Tank Brigade
43rd Cavalry Regiment
36th Indian Brigade
23rd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
India Command
Eastern Command
6th Heavy AA Regiment
35th Light AA Regiment

This is what he has at Calcutta... 1 strong ID, 2 Armoured Bdes, 1 Tank Bde and a couple of Indian Bdes... Gosh... Don't think i'll be able to conquer it. Will try anyway, but that's too much with a +4 terrain modifier...

[GreyJoy]

The only good news is that the RR network is now completely closed around Calcutta. There's only one road that arrives to the city by west and that will be soon closed too.

[veji1]

Looking at all he has in Calcutta, you could wear that down, but it would take a bit of time, isolation and a big big LBA effort. But it is doable and worth it, just not in a shock and awe fast type of way.

[paullus99]

The real question is, even if you are able to "wear down" that stack, what are the chances that you'll merely trash the HI and resources you are trying to take in the first place?

What areas of the map will now be neglected because you've tied down a considerable Army at a single point? If I was Obvert - I'd be now looking at what mischief I could cause elsewhere, knowing you were well and fully committed to India.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

The real question is, even if you are able to "wear down" that stack, what are the chances that you'll merely trash the HI and resources you are trying to take in the first place?

What areas of the map will now be neglected because you've tied down a considerable Army at a single point? If I was Obvert - I'd be now looking at what mischief I could cause elsewhere, knowing you were well and fully committed to India.

The risk of trashing the HI at Calcutta is well existent, as always. Can't do much about it, it's just a die-n-roll and one can just hope for the best.

To be honest I think that, being so early in the game, the Allies don't have much to throw at me anywhere on the map. Even if they do, I should have plenty of time to get back on them.
My adventure in India isn't a "complete" campaign of conquest. My goal is to take Assam and Ceylon and not much more and hold them as long as possible.
Obviously there's a risk. there's always the risk of being surprised by an allied counterattack when you are fighting with all your assets on the end of the map. But the prize is well rewarding IMHO: securing Burma, isolating China completely, destroying some valuable british assets and denying the allies, for some months, the most interesting vector of advance. Not to consider the resources that I hope to bag up there.
However I will try to be as balanced as possible. Won't send EVERYTHING to India at the same time. For the next couple of months at least the allies will be very short of carriers and their airgroups are not so deadly yet, so their options will be very limited. The KB, divided into 2 Car Divisions and the mini-KB, should be able to keep him honest almost everywhere.

@veji: I think my shock attack won't even reduce the forts at first. I know it will be a long slog... the point is: will 2500 AVs be enough to wear down 1200 well-supplied and well equipped allied AVs?

The plan is now to shock attack from 4 different direction at the very same time, so to "close" the main doors for an allied sortie out of the town. At the same time this should enable me to move out of the city and contrast every attempt of relief or to give me the chance to move out some assets if the siege will last longer than what is foreseen.
Can't wait too long for Ceylon. I really hope those 6 divisions (plus the 55th) are enough to do the job, so that the Imperial can be sent to Ceylon asap... but I need to first see how the first attacks will go before deciding

[veji1]

The question for me is then, supplywise could you manage with first isolating Calcutta and focusing on destroying what you can from the Burma forces before they escape, than conquer Ceylon, and only then, with all you have, go for Calcutta, which you will have constantly bombed and suppressed in the meanwhile to avoid fort building ? Is that doable. That process wouldn't necessarily be extremely drawn out, after all you are only in late january. If you conquered Calcutta in late april, do you still consider it worth it ?

The fact that you damaged the enterprise (even a little bit) and really damage the Yorktown is a big relief, it means that you should be safe from any too bold a move for 3/4 months. The only danger is where he can go for quick hops, like in the Aleutians.

Last question, what are your plans for Northern Oz ? Do you have enough forces ? If you plan on conquering northern OZ, wouldn't you be better of postponing it after Calcutta : Rather than having 2 Divs equivalent in Northern OZ and 6 in India, just bring those OZ pencilled forces to Calcutta, and only then go for northern OZ. That place is very hard to defend for the allies anyway in 1942 : Supply lines, limited airforce with PDU off, etc... What do you think ? If you want to break Calcutta, some form of concentration might be needed, otherwise you run the risk of having too many spread out forces.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: veji1

The question for me is then, supplywise could you manage with first isolating Calcutta and focusing on destroying what you can from the Burma forces before they escape, than conquer Ceylon, and only then, with all you have, go for Calcutta, which you will have constantly bombed and suppressed in the meanwhile to avoid fort building ? Is that doable. That process wouldn't necessarily be extremely drawn out, after all you are only in late january. If you conquered Calcutta in late april, do you still consider it worth it ?

The fact that you damaged the enterprise (even a little bit) and really damage the Yorktown is a big relief, it means that you should be safe from any too bold a move for 3/4 months. The only danger is where he can go for quick hops, like in the Aleutians.

Last question, what are your plans for Northern Oz ? Do you have enough forces ? If you plan on conquering northern OZ, wouldn't you be better of postponing it after Calcutta : Rather than having 2 Divs equivalent in Northern OZ and 6 in India, just bring those OZ pencilled forces to Calcutta, and only then go for northern OZ. That place is very hard to defend for the allies anyway in 1942 : Supply lines, limited airforce with PDU off, etc... What do you think ? If you want to break Calcutta, some form of concentration might be needed, otherwise you run the risk of having too many spread out forces.

Very nice questions mate!

Don't think that isolating calcutta is a viable solution imho. There could be hundreds of thousands supplies stocked there and the more those units sit there, the more exp they gain. Also the more time i give him to bring rinforcements to India, the more chnaces he has to try a counterattack.
Sure i eant to close the road from bruma to india but i think for that task the 55th division, along with some tanks and the full support of IJAAF should be enough.
Ceylon can be taken easily when and if Calcutta falls. Don't need much more than 2 IDs to do that. Probably, as u say, the best thing i can do is to send the imperial to Calcutta and gran it as soon as possible concentrating my forces, then shift to Ceylon.
Northern Oz? I think you are right. A full division now could be an overkill and a waste of resources at. The same time. Will send the 4th ID to Java first, along with some decent air force. Grab Batavaia with the equivalent of 3 IDs and then see if they are still needed in India or if they can be moved to northern Oz.
I'll try to remain flexible. The first results at Calcutta will surely let me see how and where to conentrate the forces i have.
However considerthat i'm buying out in these days another full ID from China (26th) that is prepping for Calcutta... If not needed by the time it arrives at Singa it could be used against Luzon or Java...

[ny59giants]

One last comment here. Why is everybody forced on raw AV values vs the actual Anti-Armor and Anti-Soft values the Allied troops have at this time in the war?? [&:] [:(] Almost all of them are really bad, IMO.